INDIANANGLER

I'm quite sure, that there are a number of us who have gone out on the water, and seen the locals try their bag of tricks to catch a "fish". The question is how many of us have actually gone out and tried to educate him about size & bag limits?

I hope all of us are responsible enough to do this while we are on the waters; request them to leave the females etc.

It will go a long way to conserve angling in particuler, and fish stocks in general.

Cheers,

IG

IG,

I've been doing it and more for the last 6 years in Saryu valley using polite suggestions and strong arm tactics where they work.
The fish are back.
So are the meat collectors. I'm sickened.
This May, Some F****r from Delhi landed up, killed several fish. It is normal, but this time the boys went out and called up the Forest Deptwallahs. This 'gentle'man said he'd released all fish. Then the boys found one chopped up mahseer (egg laden) behing the kitchen and another dead male tethered in the Kali.


Mahseer scales behind the kitchen


Big mahseer- look at the size of the scales... female, because his cook, when taken aside said it had eggs.


Gill strung, dead male mahseer. Claimed to be killed by locals- it was not so. Chaps holding it are members of the 'Mahseer Mangal Dal' or mahseer welfare group, whic we started 5 years ago. One chap is the Sarpanch, the other one of my trainees. You won't find better fish handlers or observers. Also got a couple of ex-poachers, now reformed anti-poachers. We've been shot at, too.................

Then this F****r said these fish were killed by someone else. Then he said he couldn't see why he was being harassed since the permit does not say he has to release fish. Then he buggered off and wrote complaints about the boys being too rude. His servants also sold some fish to jeepwallahs. One jeepwallah was arrested by the FD, too. The fish was going out wrapped up in a large banana stem.

Forestwallahs..... useless buggers.... instead of burying this fish, they too carted it away, probably to the kitchens.

The locals in my part of the beat don't take more than one fish per family, but your run of meat collectors from town do. My problem increases tenfold when these townies land up, cart fish away. This is the time the locals tell us- why are you stopping us when you don't stop them?
In the near past, the boys have confiscated and buried fish killed by locals, Got all the photos, vid clips, am working on a piece about 'conservation' but I feel it may be totally useless since townie meat collectors won't stop.

In the Ramganga valley, I've been training gillies in proper fish handling, but since I own nothing there, the meat collectors still manage to score one for the icebox.

Ah shit- like most MCs say to me and the boys-" Oh yes, we have also done a lot of Conservation. It's useless. How long do you plan to do this for? Do you need a job? I need a driver..."

Where's Bagiganga? What was that about adopting a piece of water........?
Jefe? Where's the WANI? MKen? Southie brothers? Anyone?

Vedan

Vedan, it's time to take the stretch on lease..... we've had that discussion many times before. That's the only way it will work.

Saddened to see the evidence! To protect it you have to own it first, that's the only law that works here.

Bops

Hai, there Bops good to have you back. How was your trip? When do we go to me Dr. Basavaraj? Do call me.

I say post pictures of these blokes. Or at least their names, you can get them from the licenses if they bought one.

Vedan,
Lease the place. Find out the costs and the money will come. Please tell me what I can do.

Why dont we approach the Fisheries dept at Hessaraghatta? Four or five of us could go there and approach them to start an angling club. Sandeep cha`bati are you there.

Hi guys,

although we all know that these things happen regularily, it definately is very disturbing when we have evidence / pictures of the same. This definately must stop & its high time that we do something concrete about it. I feel like I could clobber those chaps when I see them. I have violent ideas right now, but cant post them on the thread

any suggestions for a way forward? I suppose we cant just sit here forever & wait. I know some of you are already working towards conserving our nature, but is there anything we can do ?

Please let us know, how we could assist.

Vedan, it's something we all need to get on board with. Together, working with others who have an interest in the natural environment, we have a chance.

Can I suggest you have a chat with Eljefe, as I feel you two guys are best placed and likely to be respected. You need to find as many other small groups like your mahseer watchers as you can, be they bird fanatics, white water rafters, villagers, just anyone who stands to lose out if the river is damaged in any way.
Tell them you are starting a Wildlife Association of North India, but you need them to support you. We will have an umbrella body soon, who can take these things up at a higher level, but you need plenty of eyes and ears in your neighbourhood to bring things to the attention of the Forest Dept and the Pollution Control Board.
If you hear of anything like this happening, go out with at least five of you and take pictures, but don't put yourselves at risk. Eventually, the less determined will decide its not worth the hassle and just leave.
At least it will take some pressure off for now and the locals will see you are making an effort to work on their behalf.

As soon as I have more details on starting the groups, I'll email you so you can spread the word.

If you can find out how much it costs to rent or buy a stretch of river, we can work on that too.

Steve

PS, if you try to email me, my old address is down. Best to use:
stevenbobbie@yahoo.co.uk

Vedan,

Shocked to see the pictures of the dead fish.

I would love to spend some time at an anti poaching camp on any of the Mahseer rivers up North. Is anyone else willing to join me? A one man army can do very little.

How much money would be required to take a beat or two on lease?

Should we appeal to the Tata Power Company who have done so much to save the fish by their captive breeding programme?? They may be willing to fund the lease.

The other big question is who will do the patrolling and whom do we report to in case of violation. This is the problem in the Cauvery too. The forest dept. clearly says they are short staffed to protect the 40 + km of the river which is the prime habitat for Mahseer.

Vedan, my offer to come north to live in an anti poaching camp stands, if you need my help.

United in conservation.

Sandeep

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for the offer.
Bring a shotgun for close quarter work and a .30 '06 if you'd rather be silent but violent.
I'm waiting for a fresh supply of hollowpoints.

You have a pm.

Cheers

V.

Hi Vedan

finally some people who are pissed ... and use 4 letter words - WOW !!! I thought I was the only one getting warning emails from the coordinater !!!

i disagree with all the well meaning folk here even though I appreciate all the enthusiasm and all that rambo conservation camp stuff... will holler when we need a posse ...

sometimes i see that all this conservation is for people to lease river and run commercial fishing camps - which is fine by me - but the river is free - and i like to chuck my plug where i want to - so please lay off the leasing shit. we dont need the TATA here - stupid company making a Rs 1 lac car when they need to make energy efficient buses and trucks - no use for freedom if it means I cant float down any river and chuck my plug where i want to when i want to.

conserving rivers- clean the river water first - look at what Bageshwar is doing to the Saryu and Lohaghat town is doing to Lohaghat river, look at what Satpuli is doing to the Nayar ... need Sanitation system to clean the muck so that the fish have a chance ... cant hear anyone mention that ... anybody wanna talk sanitation first ...

villages dont need a few guards and a few servant jobs - they need the whole village employed at a minimum of Rs 3000/month per family - anybody talk of job employment projects and providing fuel to replace the wood cutting and provide seeds+trees to change the abject nature of their existence and other micro level enterprises ... feed the village and they will support you ... villagers can see through bullshit fast.

the history of the Kali is different - the river was near dead 8-9 years ago - the meatwallas had reached all the way upriver from Tanakpur - Boom was fished out and they were heading up all the way beyond Chuka -

thats when KALIMATA sent the SSB force and they saved the Mahseer. They stopped the dynamite activities in the river, stopped the Tanakpur meatwallas and cleaned up the shits from the river.

you want guards... i give you the whole SSB brigade camped on the complete river - the fittest fighting force in the world - cant see what a bunch of villagers without firepower who can be bought for a song is going to do guarding a small stretch of the river in the name of conservation ...

like i said - this is not about leasing stretches, saving fish to catch for some stupid fatcat for a picture - this is about protecting the whole river, providing employment, winning support from the grassroots up, involving the right people and getting TUFF with the right people on the side and firepower to go with it !!!

I appreciate the work Vedan is trying to do, but he needs help from a lot of different sources - from people who know the river, from urban sanitation experts, from retired SSB / Army / Police people, from politcal people, from agro experts and micro business experts - you need a team of specialists - and you need the SSB brigade to do the killing.

Lets talk man ... its time for WAR !!! Support for the warchest will be welcome, starting with the bar bills ...

BG,

Agree with you totally on the counts of a river being free for anglers and keeping away the lease monster. Look what's happened to the Ramganga outside Corbett.... and the rape that occurs below Bhikyasein with electrocution, poison and nets. Ever seen the looplines there after the rains are over? Ever tried stopping it? I tried- and was very lucky to have gotten away without grievious harm even after using very careful words.

I have to agree, though very reluctantly, that the fishing in the beats is actually better than what it used to be before the leases stepped in. The fishing is expensive, but it's there. I remember fishing below Baluli village in '02 with the missus and a whole bunch of locals landed up, pushed us aside and chucked in 3 sticks of dynamite. 3 fish came out, two carp and a small mahseer. That doesn't happen anymore.
But yes, I believe in a free anglers' river and a free boaters river.
Also agree on all counts of cleaning the rivers and providing every family with a 3000 per month job.
Who's going to do it? The Govt.? Other anglers who never go there? If the Govt could, they would. The best thing they could to to boost revenue was grant a contract for mining the confluence- there's a crusher in operation right at the confluence. I can't do anything about it because the contract was granted by the DFO and the contractor who owns it is someone I don't want to tangle with.

The SSB? Oh by the way, heres a pic of two SSB wallahs poaching right off the steps of the Pancheshwar temple:



These two, from the battalion posted two years ago (they rotate every 6 months and there's always a shikari among them) had terrorised the locals into fishing off the steps and longline around the temple. Released a 32lb mahseer on a longline that was about to reach their kitchens. We got in and spoke to the commandant, who very reluctantly transferred them. And I have footage of more SSB types changing out of uniform and lobbing grenades into the Kali, close to Khet. I also have footage of cops from Lohaghat landing up with dynamite and have taped conversations of them trying to coerce the locals into doing it for them.
Later on, we got on with all SSB commandants (some of them good people), bought permits, took them fishing and converted them. The current crop of SSB is beginning to see the light, especially after we get them a standing order from the DM. 166 sticks of dynamite confiscated by us and disposed by them. Got footage of that, too.
It's all coming together.

Strange- you go to the SSB, DFO or townie anglers as a local, speak in a villager accent and you get a totally different response. Go as a Sahib and they're the only people who do anything about the state of affairs.

Back to providing villagers with livelihoods rather than turning them into watchers and servants. Are they really qualified to do anything better? Their children, after education, may be, but the it's a sad fact that current crop of villagers can't do much, really, because they don't have the money to educate them properly and someone's got to labour at 60 a day to feed mom, dad, brothers, wife and four brats. Those who are qualified to do better are already doing so- in towns, because village life doesn't get them more than Rs 60 a day labour wage and everything that they grow feeds just their families.
Planting trees and watching them grow doesn't get anyone any money. Why should they? They're not getting any carbon credits. Even if they apply for it, the govt. will tax them.
Heard of the 'Home Stay' plan started by the Eco-Tourism Dept.?
They give 'grants' to villagers for setting aside a room and building toilets, etc. for guests. And they're charged 30% on every occupancy of a 300 rupee rent.

Ah, I'm sure you've been supporting several families somewhere- I started running out of money after doing it for 4 families in Pancheshwar, who are now called by many foul names by all and sundry because the others aren't getting any of the lolly.
Me- I've turned them into top class birders, fish handlers and eco-friendly campers and taught them to converse in reasonable english. They agree their children will have a better future from the dosh they're making right now, even if it's a five month season of one party each month.
The rest of them aren't interested unless they're getting what the contractor charges.

I'm going to pull out soon, because someone's sold land to the KMVN and another party is building a resort. There's a road being built all the way up the Sarju from Pancheshwar to Ghat, and another one up the Kali from Tanakpur to Jauljibi. Read massive hillside cutting, landslips, siltation, dynamite........ nets, resorts, thieving servants, no checks..........

Meatwallas from Tanakpur- they're still in operation, mate! Maikulal, Dayaram, et al all around and fattening! The SSB buys fish from them.
And whot do you propose for the meatwallas from Nepal? Dhan singh, Udi Ram, Gobind Rai, Kailash Ram..........

We don't need a lease.
But if it's the only way to look after a river, so be it.
It should go to an association (because individuals can be steamrolled easily) with the right motives which look after the anglers as well as those that the anglers depend upon- the locals (I'm an angler first and last, conservationist, twitcher, and everything else in between).

You're dead right about locals seeing through the bullshit, which is why they understand the principles of conservation for sportfishing completely, but you have to have the dosh to back it up. I can't because I'm not an association. Also, I don't want to bear the onus of being the one in the steamroller's path- honestly, I'm a very small man who can only do so much without endangering myself- got a family to look after, and that includes my 'boys'.

And I'll go to the bar after I think I've done something worth celebrating.

Cheers

V.

Bagiganga, your enthusiasm about protecting the river is welcome but I will not tolerate any bullshit from you. You have not bothered to introduce yourself on the forum. You have used foul language on the board in the past which I have had to remove. Unless we know who you are and where you come from I can can only conclude that you are here make trouble.

For all I know you could be from the anti-angling camp. If you want people to share your enthusiasm about conservation I suggest you introduce yourself on the forum.

IndianAngler

You know, Bagiganga, when you're walking down one of your beloved rivers, casting your plug into some glistening pool and the Goonda comes over and throws you out on your ear because that pool is now leased by Oberoi or Taj, would you wish a conservation group had leased it first to ensure fishing for all?



I think you're right about the need for many solutions having to be found to safeguard rivers. Not least of which is providing employment for villagers. But as you can see from Vedan's post, once a resort is planned (which may well provide employment for locals, or at least tempt them with offers!), the environment comes a very distant second to feeding the cash cow.
This conservation bull**** that some of us keep banging on about has to take place or there will be no river, no forest, no fish, no monsoon, no tiger, no firewood, no bees, no... well, you get my point.
At first, we have to educate, and it sounds like Vedan is doing a pretty good job of that. We also need some people to march and shout, some to give money, some to write article for the press and even some to criticise.

I hope you are really angry about the way rivers are treated in India, because they are your lifeblood and without them, your beautiful, diverse and chaotic country will die.

PM me with some more details about your willingness to fight these causes, or better still, send me an email to:
stevenbobbie@yahoo.co.uk
We can then talk in private.

Hope your bite is at least as bad as your bark

I have read so much about saving the fish and the rivers and the environment here. The passion is real. But I think we should stop trying to prove that we each has a better way of reaching the same objective.

It's time to act.

Since all this is happening up north (the south seems to have started) I suggest we have a meeting (very soon). And take the first steps, whatever they might be.

We're onto it M, I'll add you to the list of contacts who are prepared to get real. You will be invited to the next meeting, wherever and whenever it may happen.
In the meantime, if you want to organise something local to you, keep us informed about progress. Could I suggest a small group doing something positive on a local basis, similar to the litter picking that Outrigor Sandeep does.
Once the various bigger bodies are running properly, you can then be incorporated.

Hope you read the minutes of the meeting in Bangalore

Hi Vedan

I appreciate your reply and more so because it has ground level information which are based on experience, hard facts and that you are fighting on the ground instead of people like myself posting issues on the net from a comfortable urban environment.

Your disillusionment with the Kali is shared by all those who have fished her waters for years ... lot of us have dealt with the issue 'why bother, its beyond repair' ... moving on to Nepal or Siang ...

But being from the hills, these are our rivers that we hold sacred - I have seen hell at Tehri and surely I cant walk away from the Kali... this is our land and our river.

I propose the following -

* all those who have fished the Kali, please raise your hands as you owe it to contribute back to the river - more so if you have caught a fish - people who have blanked are excused - have a laugh boys - it does not always have to be serious -

* call a meeting and get down to delegating jobs and forming some association / organisation of sorts

* research the socio-econo-legal-environ scene out completely and come out with macro level plans and micro plans

* rejig the organisation once the plans are in place and make it a working model

for example, I would suggest that the SSB HQ in Delhi be involved in the project. If not then the home ministery and if not then Rahul Gandhi himself. One instruction from HQ to the base camps on the river and see the change. We can then coordinate compliance with crew on the river.

Think Big .... a lot of stuff can happen.

All this requires funds which needs to be raised - I doubt one will raise funds for mahseer - so it means pitching the fund applications in all other areas and strangling Pepsi or Coke to come up with the money based on budgets and tangible targets.

Fund raising, media management, coordination with higher ups, moving and sourcing research in right areas to further our case for various issues requires a team placed in delhi and also linked nationally and internationally. Thats where all the other people showing interest here are useful.

Also I repeat, save the forests and you will have tigers - save the river and you will have fish.

The road you mention - this is the Chuka tiger beat area - you may have heard of the tigers that walk up from the Chuka forests up to Sehraghat - the forests here can be declared a protected zone - we need to link the region up with Corbett as a tiger corridor and start a dialogue with the TIGER TASK FORCE people. Can the road be stopped, i dont know, should we give it a shot - why not ?

This stuff cant be done as individuals, it requires a team commited to the Kali. People in various places making different contributions.

Your call now - set the time and place - nothing more is possible in virtual talk .... all outstation people will be put on the loop once this ball get rolling. We need hands and feet first.

By the way Vedan, I am vikram singh. I fish with ian Tank and pavan. we have called Kali home for a long time. The first few permits were issued on my name when people laughed at us for buying permits to fish.

I may also have met your brother if you are from Dehra Dun - he had come to our camp a few years back with Ramesh the pisshead. By the way he is banned from our camp now and will be tortured in our camp if we find him ever.

BG

Thanks for keeping the safety catch on.

Tehri was inevitable.
The road up the Kali is inevitable- it's an international border, defence issues and the hydel projects at Jauljibi are better served by the Kali road.

The Sarju road is unnecessary.
Chuka area needs attention, and fast. Bagged two nepali poachers near Thak last year, with leopard and yes, one tiger skin. So they're still there (the tigers), much as my friends from Corbett area like to deny.

You probably did meet my brother if it's Tank you fish with. Ramesh will be gutted and fed to the fish if he shows up anywhere on the Sarju. The reason he's alive is because he doesn't anymore....

You do have solid ideas, mate, and it's all coming together, as Steve says.

Btw when was the last time you were on the Kali?

Regards

V.

Damn, I've been cut out of the conversation, even though I've been to the Kali! Didn't catch a fish, didn't get close enough .

Good to hear some sense being spoken, instead of arguments.

I'm on the case of putting a National Body in place, gathering support from outside angling, which can be used in a media campaign.
Also trying to help with formation of Regional Groups, so your ideas are being put into motion B, but it will take time.

The invite to email me is open to anyone with ideas and the drive to see them through.

We are thinking big, let's expand from there...

ps, V, I've found a cash pot in India that will pay 15 lakh to the right project. Jim Smith is a fundraising specialist, I'll get him on the case to see how you can access the pot.
If we then add some fund raising in Europe, we could have a fighting fund of say 20 lakh to kick off with.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I'm looking into visiting Delhi/Uttaranchal in October this year, so watch out guys.

Will I arrive like this?
Or like this?

Sole purpose of the visit will be to set up WANI and to look at the issues faced. I'll run a meeting similar to the one we had in Bangalore in April. Hope Vedan and Eljefe will be there to introduce the rest of the troops.

Just my two bits,I havent been or seen the Kali but I second that

Having one Org WAI at the national level should be the preferred route,you need the Gov both at the Centre and at the state level on your side to get the job done.

Set it up as a enviormental NGO,Association whatever,and you will not only get folks in the Gov to hear you out,but also the much needed funds to deal with the issues and address them.

Should such a body be set up at the national level then Sandeep wont be alone in his fight to save the Cauvery eco system,just as Bagi and Vedan will get a platform to tackle the Kali up North..

Now let's get real, it does require a lot of focus,commitment and time to address these issues,do all of us have the time to spare for such a cause,well if we can take time out for fishing then we should all take time out to support such a cause and the people behind it,that is if we want to make a difference.

Count me in,& Vedan I got the guns too

Sanjay

V-

we were in Kali last October as usual - our standard time is end sept to middle October in river (15-20days in the river), you know we cant miss the action at the right time ... we dont stop in Pancheswar as we raft down straight away to get away from the stinking flies of pancheswar and the crowds of amateur anglers noising up the swims and not following rules ...

wont be in Kali this year as I said - we are off to Nepal going back to fishing the old way with checking out every swim of a 150 km river. you will find me around the ganges in september during the migration and november this year. i am working on some projects here which should start soon. you know bagi village.

lets put it this way, with my introduction completed to the people who matter and also my friend Tank (the original chief mahseer of Kali turned professori) who studies to be a freshwater marine biologist at the Univ of Edinburgh and will be working on Mahseer, we are beyond the politics of Oxfam type organisations and more noise than result organisations.

contact me when you want to meet to get this thing going, till then the discussions here are not heading anywhere and the research required is far extensive to make any suitable points in small posts - u guys have my email... or when anyone is in Delhi ... Ill buy the drink.

One last point - history of the river again for people who dont know the Kali =

there used to be a old baba at the Pancheswar temple who protected the fish and noone fished on the side of the temple in the old days till even last year maybe ?... Baba protected the fish and it was the rule of the river, even though our mouth used to water looking at the Baba feeding the big fish in the eddy next to the temple ... there was some stupid local politics and the sad man left the temple and went away ... it was a tradition for us to go to the temple and pay the Baba our respects ...

when i see your pictures with the SSB guys I see them on the temple side-i am surprised that the local priests are unable to put the pressure of the God on the SSB ... this was meant to be holy site ...try this anywhere else in the world with the other religions ? religion can help in saving fish !!!

I wont apologise people...been away a bit on some urgent family emergency.
Back now, and I hear you-ALL!
The PHG has started as a nucleus, more dedicated individuals are coming on, Sanjay, Dev and a couple more ready for the initiation.
I heard about the MC's and fished in the ganga and saw the levels drop 100 feet in a couple of years and feared that there would be no river fo our children.
We have the beginning of a decent , outrageous plan.

Bagi, Vedan, can we arrange a meet when you guys are in town next? Ken, Sanjay, gypsy, Dev and a couple of pals will join in.
The PHG wont wait for this and will go right ahead and start/initiate at a micro level.
As Sanjay says, we got the guns (too) but its time to use the strings/cables-legally
Names be da***d, we could be the "pucker factor" for all it matters as long as we get the ball rolling...
Best
Axx

I wish you guys all the very best in your new venture! You folks are welcome to use the forum for showcasing this conservation project and for raising funds if required.

Cheers
Bopanna

Thanks Bops!

Need all the help.

cheers

Yup , Thanks Bops, for the conservation column and the good wishes...
Best
Axx

Many thanks Bops,

You da man....

Cheers

V.

thanks a ton bops... like v. said... "YOU DA MAN"