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Up North... - INDIANANGLER ->

INDIANANGLER

India fishing forum for all the information you require on angling, equipment, locations and trip reports.
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 Post subject: Up North...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:37 pm 
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Fishaholic

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...is it true that mahseer are taken out for the pot legally?

Rustam


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:56 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:39 pm 
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Thanks, Ashok.

Although the information came from reliable sources, I was wondering if they had got it wrong.

I take it the population is still healthy despite their removal?

Rustam


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:03 pm 
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Rustam,

The population is not healthy but not because of removal by anglers. Its the dynamite, commercial netting etc etc which probably plauges most of our rivers which caused the damage.

[In a different context] There is one stretch of Yamuna in Uttaranchal - upstream of Vikasnagar / Dakpatthar that does hold promise to develop into a good Mahseer section. Its close to DehraDun, easily accessable and the river runs deep at full volume. I will be writing to authorties at DehraDun and will forward a copy to you guys - please send your mails too.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:41 am 
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Thanks, Ashok.

Rustam


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:59 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:43 pm 
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Hukum,
Up North, the poor fish are taken out illegally, too. This in Uttaranchal. Many a 'sporting angler' will release fish only if there's a foreigner around. The rest goes to servants, local villagers and Forest Deptwallahs to keep 'Sahib's' image sweet ("arre bhai, woh sahib to bahut achche hain- khoob machhi khilatay hain- aap bhi khilaya karo."). The rest goes into iceboxes or liberally coated with turmeric and pickled to be enjoyed at home.

Oh yes. Many a good releasing gillie has been browbeaten into getting his fish carted away. This in some of the most famous beats up North.

Himachal has a release limit only on undersized fish of any species, but they do have a stocking programme for mahseer and other commercial fish. Mahseer in Himachal dyng out, though. Look up the Himachal fisheries website and see the catch drop rate......

Cheers, but no cheers.

V.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:51 pm 
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Thanks for the reply, Vedan.

Rustam


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:57 pm 
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No probs.
Great to be on board a place reality has a place.
Cheers,
V.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:48 pm 
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Hi Vedan,
If you need help from Foreigners in putting pressure onto local authorities let me know and I'll get a few of us to write.
I for one have visited Dehra Dun and up to Mussorie, Corbett and Haridwar, so know some of the territory, it's not like I would writing blind.
Anything we can do to make local Government take sportfishing and it's impact on the local economy more seriously will not only help you guys, but also make the whole place a better environment for all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:29 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:25 pm 
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Fishaholic

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:07 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Sorry for cross posting, but on second thoughts I felt this was apt for this thread.

Came across an interesting quote in one of the back issues of Field & Stream:
"... there are many fishermen in these parts who stand resistant against change, who will never dream of releasing a big fish, whose fathers never did either, and whose sons may not have the chance..."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:09 pm 
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Sometimes it just takes someone to make a stand. Several small steps lead to a big stride.
If there was enough interest in fishing tourism and locals can see the benefit of protecting fish because money goes direct into their pockets, there will be enough pairs of eyes to deter all but the most determined poachers.
Environment is such a key issue in all senses of the word. If we don't try to ensure there are wild stretches of river for wild fish to live, they will be no more very quickly. And, although they may not know it at present, there will be no more country for people to live and survive in.

If I have to write to every separate State Fishery Dept; so be it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:22 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:37 am 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:01 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:00 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:18 pm 
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One more reason angling suffers in India could be that we anglers are too few in numbers and there is not much money to made by states in promoting sport fishing as would be the case in the west?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:44 am 
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Viraj et al,
I feel there may be some mileage in getting Foreigners to kick some ass.
Next year, I'm bringing one of my mates out to malvalli. He is the leading fishery expert on the conservation front in the UK. One of the jobs he has lined up is to see who in world angling NGOs is the best person to help the cause of Indian fisheries.

I have seen many times the tardy response to well meaning locals trying to get things done. Often, I have seen the results of Foreigners trying to get things moving in India, as well.
If enough Europeans stand up and present the case, backed up by expert support, and with the promise of cash, something must surely be done.
It will take a long time for any changes to be seen, and it will take a lot of help from you lot, but I'm sure minds can be changed.

Let's believe...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:42 am 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:22 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:44 am 
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Wow, V & O, I hear what you're saying. But surely, throwing your hands up in the air and saying we're doomed is no way forward?

I'm speaking as a very concerned Foreigner, who has a desire to create something that is good for all concerned.
In whatever way we can, raising profile has to be one of the first steps. To show to people in positions of power that anglers are very involved with the welfare of an entire ecosystem. Actually, anglers may be the only barrier between a safe environment and the complete breakdown of an environment.

I have some conception of the situation on the Kaveri, both with regard to block booking by Europeans, and another tour group, who may finish their tours to fish the mighty river because of the diminishing size of the fish.
Both of those stories I'm viewing from the outsiders perspective, but have real fears for the future of the river south of Bangalore. (Personally, I have never fished it, but hope to put that right next year.) There must be a way to put it right, because it is right. Without anglers, without tourist income (Indian or Foreign), there is no way nature can stand against the greed and ignorance of mankind.

Phew, didn't mean to get quite so intense, but at least we are talking about unpalatable issues, it is a first step towards solving them.
Cash may not cure everything, but we appreciate that local people have to survive, and fish, historically, have been their survival route. We need to offer a different route, and fast...
Everyone involved in these scenarios has to understand that without a living local environment, everyone suffers.

Welcome to the new century :x


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:35 am 
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Fishaholic

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Right Steve, so we agree that an alternate source of income for the locals which should include them as guardians of the river and this in time will help the fish stocks and bring back tourists (anglers) and finally everyone prospers and then the river goes to hell once more and we scratch our heads and wonder what the hell happened to the best river in the country.
Then realization that too much of a good thing could end in disaster dawns, and that the river stretch that started out as an exotic destination for world wide anglers has finally turned into a circus.
Call me negative, but this is a cycle that will take place on most of the improving waters in this country, unless we know how to maintain the balance and say "we have earned enough for the year, and now the place needs a rest." No tourism of any kind till next season, but we will continue to protect the water even without there being any visitors.

Having lived all my life in this country, I still say that nothing will happen on the ground to make government authorities take an active interest in anti poaching and protection of the rivers, unless some one like the PM or President intervenes and gives directions, and to get that to happen there will need to be threats of stoppage of funds for such projects!
That's reality Steve.
Regards
Owen


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:00 pm 
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Glad to read some wonderful posts :-)

The issues that have been bought up:

:arrow: Too few anglers... :?:
:arrow: Angling fees have been hiked and :?:
:arrow: Steve is a European :twisted: Why didnt anybody mention this earlier :?: His photo and that look - I should have guessed..
:arrow: Protecting the stretch then watching it get decimated by white man :twisted: and urban anglers :roll: versus local locals :wink:

Does this sound familiar:?: Maybe to a liberal-economist-angler :?: Like the debate on allowing Walmart into India :?: Dont close the mind yet.

I think MJ was cool when he sang 'it dont matter whether it's black or white' (maybe the words are approximate but you will recall him breakdancing and morphing and lions and black africans in lion skins dancing around). I suppose its cool to end with 'as long as its green', but dont want to get frivolous.

Post on please 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Hi Viraj,
I don't think it matters whether Steve is black, white or green, he has shown more concern for our waters without ulterior motives than we give him credit for. We appreciate the help he is offering, but in reality he needs to know how this country functions.
It is not the white man that has decimated the stretch, it is our own greed for money in alowing the river stretch to be overfished with no closed season and used for any kind of activity as long as it brings in bucks in a big way. If i were a mahseer i would run like hell for quieter waters now that there is plenty of protection in place.
Regards
Owen


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:30 pm 
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Posts: 165
Hi Owen,

That says it absolutely all.
I've been paddling the same boat, different strokes.
Totally agreed on Steve's concern for our waters and understanding. Also agree re. abuse of rivers for moneyspinning without concern for the well being of fish. Well, things have got to change some time. Up to us to be in a position to suggest when that comes around, great to thrash things out.

And yes, you're right on safer waters in the Cauvery, too. Now that there's more protection and the fish have spread, they'll show more natural behaviour and even up everybody's chances of getting one :wink: . Some of my brothers up North were beginning to wonder whether the expensive beats included fish for rent (for the pic) if you couldn't catch one...

Steve- I'm sure no one's thrown up the hands yet.

Viraj- above posts were mainly for Steve's benefit.
Re. decimation- slack up on the protection and it'll get decimated by anyone, any color, anywhere. Many ways.
I still can't imagine a Walmart at Jamoon...

The mind is very open, let's take it fishing , shall we?

Cheers,
V.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:32 pm 
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To all,

I was in Kullu valley recently where I fished for rainbow / trout on Tirthan river at "Nagini", with no results. The local scene did enlighten me a lot. "Sainj" a prime trout stream till a few years back had been decimated due to a dam construction upstream and no one seemed to have a clear road map on how trout fishing would recover. HP government only priority is hydel power generation and interest in promoting sport fishing is zero. Even at the meeting of "Himachal Angling Association" [HAA] were talking at cross purpose and no road map with time bound results and audits was presented. A very gloomy scence indeed. I pray that Thirthan can be saved and will recover from the recent flash floods . It is a beaultiful trout stream.

I hope bops can give a draft presentation to the Ministry of Environment & Forests pointing out that there are serious, responsible anglers here in India who would like to see dramatic improvement in Mahseer fishing at least in some few spots to start with. Bops would specifically highlight the poblems of Cauvery and Ramganga request that given the high fees now both the places DEMAND [a]sciencitific management, [b] annual fish population audits, [c] regular patrolling for control of poaching & [d] feedback from anglers. We would then get the copy of the presentation by e mail and we would all send a hard copy to MOE&F by Regd.AD.

Critical comments MOST welcome.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:36 pm 
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To all,

I know that we are all sceptical of govt action [inaction]. But we must come togather a large body and get the govt to listen. It is one of the many things which may have to be do but this job has to be done by someone. A policy change at the MOE&F which improves sport fishing would be a welcome change.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:05 pm 
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Ashok/Viraj,
Form an anglers for India -NGO, make the Prez the Big Kahuna and us delhi types gently keep pushing?
The papers with 2 tons of a/d will only gather dust -The paper work to concerned ministeries should be followed up by a group visit to the Prez or Pm and another petition given to him/ them.
Sure, call steve along-I had guys from the american college of emergency physicians come along to petition for a formal , recognised residency in emergency medicine in India...
Best
Axx


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:57 pm 
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Don't have a huge amount of time at the minute, but:
Dr Mark Everard, who will join me in Bangalore from end March is a World-renowned expert on conservation of wetland environments. When he speaks, Governments listen.
Like in India, they may not act, but at least they listen. He is going to assess the situation on the Kaveri and talk to WASI. Hopefully we can do the same for Uttaranchal etc at a later date.

I still reckon small steps come first. I spoke at a tourism conference in Mysore two years ago and got a standing ovation from delegates and the Karnataka Tourism Minister for suggesting that Indians need to learn to stop spitting in the streets and have a litter policy if you want foreign tourism to increase.
Probably nothing has been done to address those issues, but at least it has been said and someone will be thinking about them.

Slowly, slowly etc...


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 Post subject: For the pot!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:11 am 
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Looks like this thread is going overboard and really deserves a separate conservation column!! Bops?
Can we have something on those lines ?
All these are wonderful ideas...And will die a stillborn death if not catalysed asap by all concerned.Which means you the reader and every member and visitor.
What I can offer is as much time as I can spare, while I am in Delhi, to follow, up, call, send faxes, generally make a bloody nuisance of my self, as far as Environment Min is concerned.I will need guidance from the more experienced and aware amongst you to START.
While we can brainstorm and formulate a petition, maybe Bops ( if I read right in a previous post ) can keep us informed of the status of the petition if any, and what help is required?
I think getting us all here under a common banner, for a noteworthy cause , was a magnificent initiative of Indian Angler, we must keep the faith and bash on regardless-2007 is the year!
Best
Axx


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 Post subject: Re: For the pot!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:18 am 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:03 am 
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I'm creating another section called Environment and Conservation. Please use this section for conservation/environment issues.

Petition Status etc can be a separate post under this section, this should help with tracking.

Bops


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:21 pm 
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For the fantastic reponse and the separate column on conservation issues.
Ok, Who's first?
Do we have names for a IA-conservation commitee?
How do we go about it? Ideas please! I'm just an ER Physician,NEWBIE angler at that...need help!
Do we go about forming an Indian Angler -NGO ?
Where ? Delhi, elsewhere?
Who's volunteering political clout? :wink:
Petition contents?
Take an appointment with the Prez-He's quite reachable to the common man !
nudge, nudge-c'mon guys?
Best
Axx


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 Post subject: me found this
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:37 pm 
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:? yes this is true. on my last trip up in UA i too found that theres no ethics in few of ours co-anglers. the bribing policy has changed from monetary terms to white flesh bribes what i'll like to call it. feeding the forest people and taking load of big female masheer home and distributing it all across the contryside.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:43 pm 
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They must be poachers not anglers.
Regards
Owen


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:50 pm 
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Quite a few of the guys who contributed to this post haven't followed up on the 'fighting the cause' post. So c'mon guys, let's keep going with the ideas.

Especially like to see Owen and Rusty getting on board with their experience.

Us foreigners can help with experience of how successful campaigns have run over here. You guys are the ones who will need to actually get things going and give any project credibility.

Eljefe is looking to establish a WANI, but I suspect there does need to be a countrywide body to link everyone. It could be based around this site, but who is putting themselves forward to get their hands dirty?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:57 am 
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Fishaholic

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Hi all,

Excellent thread and great ideas too. Lets not give up.

Owen, all is not hunky dory at Cauvery. Call me and we can chat. I have sent my report to WASI.

I am starting a new thread on saving Cauvery Wildlife Sanctuary so that there is focus on both the rivers of the North and Cauvery in the south.

Bops is this ok with you.

Outrigorsandeep


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:26 pm 
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Sure mate, go ahead. Anything for conservation!

Bops


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:49 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Thanks Bops,

Check out my new thread.

And if you have the time do come to Mutthatti on Jan.21st and see what we are doing.

United in conservation.

Outrigorsandeep


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:59 am 
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Fishaholic

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Fishaholic
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Owen, perhaps you should have a look at the Fighting the cause post. You need to be very careful when introducing fingerlings. We are looking into the fish that were introduced into the Kaveri, they may be a small part of the reason why the bigger fish are not seen so often.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:07 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Hi Steve,
I mean introduction of fingerlings of the same species that already exisists in the river system. I am well aware of the consequences, we have had enough problems on the Kaveri. :roll:
Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:36 pm 
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Fishaholic
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Dear Friends, :D
I am reviving this thread because of my emotional attachment to many of the places mentioned here and due to my concern for the systematic habitat destruction of above mentioned places. As mentioned by Viraj the upstream and downstream portion of Yamuna near Paonta Sahib used to be my regular hunting ground. The rapids below the forest bungalow of kalesar, Hathni Kund, Dadahu, Dak pathar, kata pathar, yamuna Bridge near kampti fall were one of the best places to fish for mahaseer. The exotic beauty of the surroundings and the great fishes found in the rapids and pools were always a great temptation to me. These stretches are one of the best prospects which can be converted into world class angling spots.

There is an IDEA :idea: for all of you. The local panchayet body auctions these stretches every year on a throw away price to the local contractors who in turn give fishing rights to some locals to fish there with the understanding that they will sell their catches to the representative of the contractor on the fixed price. In turn the contractor sell the catch in the market on good profit. There are rules from the local body as to the size of nets etc but no body follow it. Why don’t we, Indian Anglers participate in the auction and secure the fishing rights of one of these stretches. All of us can contribute to this cause and we can form a local body that can look after the administration etc of that spot. In turn we can give fishing right to all of our members with the condition that they will release any mahaseer caught. We can invite the participation of local fisherman by giving them free right to fish in those waters with the same understanding that they will not catch any mahseer. As per the finance required, I am volunteering the first donation.

What say all of you.

Believe me no government body will do any thing and it become our duty to do some thing for the cause we all love.

Bopanna, I strongly recommend that lets create a fund for Indian Angler which can be used for such kind of activities. Kindly take a poll so as to know the wishes of all the members. :?:

Regards..

Ali


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:25 am 
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Enlightened

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:33 pm
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Hi Ali

I see you are based in Mumbai - anyhow - Im based in Delhi with a footprint in Kumaon and Garwhal - lets talk and get your project going - funding wont be a problem, there is always a way - believe me - if there is fish, the money will follow ... u just need people with the right initiative and attitude...

there used to be sort of club of retired people in Dehra Dun who used to fish the Ganges and they tried to put in some conservation efforts in the Ganges and Yamuna ...

get in touch and lets see some action - tired of all the talk ...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:48 am 
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Fishaholic
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HI Ali / Bops,

I'm sure that we can make a start by working towards aspirations for a better tomorrow.
I dont have any issue if I'm from Bombay & working elsewhere. My knowledge in freshwater fishing is limited & till date I have not even tasted freshwater fish (yes surprising but true)
Anyway, to me it doesnt matter if the water is in the east west north or south. If it needs to be protected, I'm sure there will be many others like me who will volunteer to protect.
Do let me know how we could proceed to protect these water.

We could definatley put up some sort of membership (yearly) & have a contribution from people as per fishing terms that we could set.
But the time is now & we have to act now. [smilie=hammerit.gif]

Ali, can you get any more info about when they have this auction or who has to be contacted or how to go about this. It would be a great help if we could get some more details & star working towards securing that stretch of water.


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