INDIANANGLER

What's the correct procedure to obtain a good knife edge and point?

I have some Mustad's that aren't too sharp or pointy and I have this Rapala hook sharpener coming along tomorrow and hope to get the Mustad's up to scratch.

Thanks.

Rustam

Your hook sharpner should come with an instructions guide, suggest you follow the instructions....

Should know if that's the case in a few hours.

Any tips or tricks that come to mind?

Rustam

Hi Rustam
Made my own hook sharpner from a small peice of very fine flat grinding stone, and cut a V in it with a file. Works wonders for large hooks, but a bit clumsy for small hooks.
Owen

All the triangular files I have seen have an equilateral triangle cross section or in other words far too wide a V. Like you said, should be okay with larger hooks.

If the instructions are missing, I may come back with a few questions.

Rustam

Would like to take a gander at the one you are getting.
Owen

Will put up a pic. Better still come on over with a large slice of b'day caik

It's one of those Rapala thingies.

Rustam

[img][img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/RHB65/DSCN2279.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/RHB65/DSCN2280.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/RHB65/DSCN2281.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/RHB65/DSCN2282.jpg[/img][/img]

Not too impressed or maybe I am doing it wrong. No instructions with the pack.

Rustam

Floating down the Brahamaputra! Sung to the tune of Ching Chong China Man!

Hi Rustam,

Just saw your post and realised I had the same hook sharpener. It worked quite well for on the spot sharpening jobs.... It's easier to just use a fresh hook if you ask me.....
Haven't seen it around in ages, might have lost it

Regards,
Mighty M.

Hi Rusty,

I remember sharpening my hooks with Broken pieces of ceramic tea cups etc on the shore in Bandra, it works

I use files for my Large hooks and oilstone for my smaller hooks. I had bought a automatic sharpener, i.e. a device with a bit up front (similar to yours in the pic) with grooves in the bit, you placed your hook point into the groove and depressed the button on the sharpener which then got the bit to move vigouously back n forth It did sharpen the hooks but somehow I did not take up to it and is now lying somewhere in a cupboard...

I really cannot stress enough how important sharp hooks are when it comes to fishng, VERY sharp hooks will increase your hookups considerably.

Thanks, Bobby.

Managed to find a small illustrated article on Thai Fishing Guide.

Rustam

Hi Guys,
I second that, very often people overlook hooks. Always check hooks after a couple of days at the river and everytime you get snagged.

Regards,
Mighty Marlin.

I consider even new hooks to be blunt, unless they are really well packed, and sharpen the lot.

Just my ten rupees' worth:

I have a two compulsions; the best lines and the best, sharpest hooks for the particular job. No matter what rod or reel you use, these two fellows are the ones doing the hard work of hooking, playing and landing the fish.

When bait fishing, I check the hook point almost everytime I retrieve the bait, and sharpen if it's less than super sharp. I've tried several types of sharpeners including stones, ceramic mug bottoms (yes!) and diamond EZ-Lap in various sizes. I have settled down on this dual-ceramic Spyderco knife sharpener. It's a flat stick of ceramic (well, two grades of them fused together), about 4 inches long. The rougher brown surface is finer than the finest wheatstones. I use this for the initial sharpening. The finer white surface is for the final honing.

Just like sharpening knives, the sharpener need to be slid towards the hookpoint, not away from it, so that the tip of the point is not weakened or bent.

My favourite method of sharpening is to create a sort of cutting edge. Both sides of the hookpoint is shaved on both sides at a shallow angle. Then I make two tiny shaves at the apex of the point itself, but at a deeper angle. I dont know whether you can picture this. I learned this from an american article on tarpon fly fishing, but alas have lost the graphics.

This method has served me very well, especially on tough-mouthed species.

Another thing that I do: a hook is only as sharp as the barb, for full penetration to occur. Many a time, I will shave off some of the barb (unless it comes with microbarb). Most of my lures nowadays have the hookbarbs pressed down; there's still a little hump left to provide some resistance to the hook pulling free.

Good advice JB, try and find the graphics, it will help a lot.
Regards
Owen

Thanks JB, that gives a very clear picture of what is required and how.

Rustam

Some nice tips JB, however, I would not do this for hard fighting fish becuase the longer the fight lasts the size of the "hole/wound" increases which considerably increases the chance of the hook slipping out.

Point taken, Bobby.

If you are refering to big mahseer or big barra, yes, there's that possibility. But if you keep the line taut at all times (wind in like crazy when the blighter runs past your coracle, arrgh!!), then you're usually okay.

One more aspect: if the fish somehow breaks the line, a microbarb or barbless hook is easier to get rid of. Imagine a line trailing from your mouth everywhere you go!

Say, here's another issue. For the last few years, my group has been using Gamakatsu Suicide 4X hooks exclusively for the mahseer. We compared notes with Terry Disdale, famed owner of Terry Rock, who uses Owner Suicide Cutting Point hooks. He has lost big mahseer a couple of times by the hook pulling out after extended fights. He feels that it's the spade shape of the hookpoint that enlarges the hole as the fight progresses. The Gamakatsu's never do that, and we seem to be getting more hook-ups too. Further, cutting Point hooks can never be re-sharpened properly once they get blunt.

Well, Terry and I ended up doing a barter trade: he gave me Power Gum (for stop knots) and I gave hime a few of those Gamakatsu's!

PS: thare MAY be another factor in the equation: Terry uses 80-lb Fireline braid instead of say 40-lb mono. Briad has almost zero stretch, so the forces on the hook during a big fight could be another culprit too.

><<:>

Easier said than done

Yes I know what you mean, I fish in the sea and alone a lot of the time, the waves tend to push the fish to you at the close of a fight when and that is the worst time for a hook to slip out. You stooping over with one hand stretched as far back as possible to keep all slack away, gaff in the other, not much you can do then :)

With Mahseer (I have never caught one) there should be a lesser chance of a slip, because of their thick rubber like lips I would think...

Hi JB,
I have tried Gamakatsu hooks of the smaller size, upto 3/0 and was very impressed. The shanks of the ones i was using were a little shorter than what i like using, but they worked well. Do you get them in 6/0 and 8/0 sizes, and designed like the Owner "Aki Twist" for fishing with Chilwa bait.
Do post some details, as would love to try them out.
I used to use and still do use O'shaunnesy (Mustard) sea hooks sizes 6/0 to 10/0 depending on how the fishing is going. Never had a hook break, and only once a pull out. I do like the needle points of these hooks, and they are easy to resharpen.
Have been hearing about VMC hooks, anyone tried these out for smaller mahseer ??
Regards
Owen

Should you be using sea hooks, Owen? Aren't they more corrosion resistant and hence more likely to stay put if the line breaks?

Rustam

OB,

Apologies!!! I have misled you a bit. The actual hook is Gamakatsu Octopus. Chemically sharpened high carbon hooks (good for Rusty since he wants them to rust ). There are two versions.

-The one with bent eye comes is sizes up to 6/0 only, not quite big enough for nig mahseer.
-Straight-eyed and 4X ('four times as strong'). These range from size 10 (very small) to size 10/0 (to hook jet-skis). The 7/0 is perfect for mahseer. We;ve been catching most of our big fish on this.

The colour can be described as dark gunmetal grey. Black would be perfect, as I find many big freshwater fish can be averse to bright colours (predators like murrel excepted of course). An alternative would be the Daiichi DX Soi in size 26. It's pure black. The shape/bend is almost the same as the Gama 4x.

During my first ever trip to Cauvery in 1997, I was using Mustad Saltwater 'octopus' hook. Landed my biggest ever mahseer on it (92-lb.), but I also missed many strikes. I put it to the bend and angle of the hook point: too far inward. I now have less faith in this hook, although it's much cheaper.

Some indicative prices (at least here in Malaysia):

-Gama Octopus (bent eye) size 6/0: Rp80 for pack of 6
-Gama straight eye 4X, size 7/0: Rp110 for pack of 5
-Daiichi Dx Soi size 26: Rp90 for pack of 5
-Mustad Saltwater 7/0: Rp10 each

><<:>

Are you refering to these?
[img][img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/RHB65/DSCN1279.jpg[/img][/img]

Owen, are you using these Mustad hooks?
[img][img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/RHB65/DSCN1282.jpg[/img][/img]



Isn't that a good thing? I was advised to use non-sea fishing hooks for the reason mentioned earlier.

Rustam

Hi Rusty & JB,
I too do like the Owner and Gamakatsu, but the Octupus Circle pattern i have never tried, and always wondered how they would penetrate with the point bent so far inwards. Do any of you guy's seriously fish with them for mahseer ?
The mustads you have shown are rather small, and could be good for small mahseer and carnatic's Rusty. Mine start from 6/0 upwards and the wire is much thicker. They are super strong and will not break unlike the stories i am hearing about "Owner", The only issue is their sharpness even when new, so i ensure that i sharpen the lot before using them, and then resharpen before casting.
Each one has his favourite hooks, i have caught my share with O'shaunnesy sea hooks, and so stick with them. There is no hard and fast rule that says sea hooks won't work in fresh water.
What i don't trust are the Mustad's with the slits on the shank to hold bait in place. Had my share of woes with them.

While fishing for Mahseer, i never put on a small hook, just because the fishing is slow. Big mistake.
I maintain the same line BS, and the same hook size that i always use rather than scale down and try for smaller fish. Robby does not agree with me. How about you guy's ??

Rusty,
I was only pulling your third leg (if you count from right to left...).

The circle hook was first popular with drift fishing for the big pelagics like marlin and sailfish. Here's the theory: the fish takes the bait. You let it swim off with it a certain distance, then hold the line to tighten everything up gradually. The circle hook will slide out to the lips and usually hook the fish at the corner of the mouth.

The main reason for using circle hooks is so that the fish is not 'gut-hooked', making for safer release (both for angler and fish!)

It works. I started using circle hooks on my flies, for toothy critters like snakeheads. Baitfishing, I used them (the ones in Rusty's pic) for this nasty S American fish called the pacu. They have teeth that can break a stainless hook! So, hooking them at the lips avoids those choppers.

Point to remember: small circle hooks dont work as well. For the Gamakatsu Octopus Circle, the smallest i would use is #2.

Another point: you CANNOT strike on to a fish when using a circle hook. You will not hookup.

But what about mahseer? My take; I have never landed a mahseer that was guthooked yet. All have been hooked at or close to the lips. My theory: mahseer take the bait deep into the gullet, to its pharygeal teeth. This is where it crushes the food (those teeth can crush anything). Then it either blows the hook out or run off with the bait. This invariably results in the hook lodged at the lips, usually at the corner. Anyway, it's only my theory!

To me, using circle hooks for mahseer has no advantage.

One more point to share. Big mahseer impose tremendous forces on the hook. There have been cases where, if you use a Trilene knot or Palomar knot on the hook eye, the said knot will squeeze out through the gap of the eye. Make sure you close this gap carefully. Two ways:
- Superglue the thing, and/or
- tie a dummy knot on the eye, to make sure the working knot does not slide around.

Or tie the knot on the hook shank itself. my favourite is having the mainline or leader coming in from the back into the eye, then to the knot on the shank (assuming it's a straight eye).

OKay, gotta rush off for the weekend. It's now 6pm over here. The red mahseer are waiting! See ya next week!

><<:>

This is absolutely correct, spot on JB

Yeah JB,
I too use the line around the shank for Owner hooks, but use the mahseer knot when using large sea hooks.
The dummy knot with a ciggy burn at the end, or nipping off the tip of the line with my teeth ensures that no fish can work loose from either of these knots.

So Rusty when are you going sea fishing with those circle hooks ??

But is that responsible? Since you come across as the conscience of Indian Fishing, some neophytes, such as me, are left wondering whether the advice given to us by others is right or wrong. Hopefully, I should get an answer the third time around.



A good attempt at obfuscation but no cigar. Sorry!

Yes, I learnt that later. Shan't name the blighter who told me to get them though. He has offered me a rather tasty flashlight in exchange for keeping my mouth shut....



It's good to know that. Relatively cheap as well. Thanks.

Rustam

But is that responsible? Since you come across as the conscience of Indian Fishing, some neophytes, such as me, are left wondering whether the advice given to us by others is right or wrong. Hopefully, I should get an answer the third time around.

Hi Rusty, Just who told you not to use O'haunnesy sea hooks mate ? I think you have your lines crossed here. I started my fishing 25 years ago on the Kaveri using these hooks and will use them for as long as i fish. It is a hook mate, and a very simple pattern hook, unlike some of the new fangled stuff you see. Many of the top anglers of the world have used it for mahseer including "John Wilson".
This is the first time i have heard anyone say don't use this hook, it is not good for the fish.
Yes i have heard that Owner is sharper, and so you miss less fish, but nothing like you are suggesting, and belive me i have learnt my angling from the river gods Subban and Bola, and have fished with Bola as recently as July using the very same hooks, so i really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Please explain.
Sorry if i missed your earlier posts, but work has been very hectic of recent.


A good attempt at obfuscation but no cigar. Sorry! [/quote]

But is that responsible? Since you come across as the conscience of Indian Fishing, some neophytes, such as me, are left wondering whether the advice given to us by others is right or wrong. Hopefully, I should get an answer the third time around.

Hi Rusty, Just who told you not to use O'haunnesy sea hooks mate ? I think you have your lines crossed here. I started my fishing 25 years ago on the Kaveri using these hooks and will use them for as long as i fish. It is a hook mate, and a very simple pattern hook, unlike some of the new fangled stuff you see. Many of the top anglers of the world have used it for mahseer including "John Wilson".
This is the first time i have heard anyone say don't use this hook, it is not good for the fish.
Yes i have heard that Owner is sharper, and so you miss less fish, but nothing like you are suggesting, and belive me i have learnt my angling from the river gods Subban and Bola, and have fished with Bola as recently as July using the very same hooks, so i really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Please explain.
Sorry if i missed your earlier posts, but work has been very hectic of recent.

But is that responsible? Since you come across as the conscience of Indian Fishing, some neophytes, such as me, are left wondering whether the advice given to us by others is right or wrong. Hopefully, I should get an answer the third time around.

Hi Rusty, Just who told you not to use O'haunnesy sea hooks mate ? I think you have your lines crossed here. I started my fishing 25 years ago on the Kaveri using these hooks and will use them for as long as i fish. It is a hook mate, and a very simple pattern hook, unlike some of the new fangled stuff you see. Many of the top anglers of the world have used it for mahseer including "John Wilson".
This is the first time i have heard anyone say don't use this hook, it is not good for the fish.
Yes i have heard that Owner is sharper, and so you miss less fish, but nothing like you are suggesting, and belive me i have learnt my angling from the river gods Subban and Bola, and have fished with Bola as recently as July using the very same hooks, so i really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Please explain.
Sorry if i missed your earlier posts, but work has been very hectic of recent.

But is that responsible? Since you come across as the conscience of Indian Fishing, some neophytes, such as me, are left wondering whether the advice given to us by others is right or wrong. Hopefully, I should get an answer the third time around.

Hi Rusty, Just who told you not to use O'haunnesy sea hooks mate ? I think you have your lines crossed here. I started my fishing 25 years ago on the Kaveri using these hooks and will use them for as long as i fish. It is a hook mate, and a very simple pattern hook, unlike some of the new fangled stuff you see. Many of the top anglers of the world have used it for mahseer including "John Wilson".
This is the first time i have heard anyone say don't use this hook, it is not good for the fish.
Yes i have heard that Owner is sharper, and so you miss less fish, but nothing like you are suggesting, and belive me i have learnt my angling from the river gods Subban and Bola, and have fished with Bola as recently as July using the very same hooks, so i really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Please explain.
Sorry if i missed your earlier posts, but work has been very hectic of recent.

But is that responsible? Since you come across as the conscience of Indian Fishing, some neophytes, such as me, are left wondering whether the advice given to us by others is right or wrong. Hopefully, I should get an answer the third time around.

Hi Rusty, Just who told you not to use O'haunnesy sea hooks mate ? I think you have your lines crossed here. I started my fishing 25 years ago on the Kaveri using these hooks and will use them for as long as i fish. It is a hook mate, and a very simple pattern hook, unlike some of the new fangled stuff you see. Many of the top anglers of the world have used it for mahseer including "John Wilson".
This is the first time i have heard anyone say don't use this hook, it is not good for the fish.
Yes i have heard that Owner is sharper, and so you miss less fish, but nothing like you are suggesting, and belive me i have learnt my angling from the river gods Subban and Bola, and have fished with Bola as recently as July using the very same hooks, so i really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Please explain.
Sorry if i missed your earlier posts, but work has been very hectic of recent.

Hi Owen/ Guys,

I've arrived on the scene late and here's my 2 cents
My mahseer fishing started off with the Mustad O'Shaughnessy sea hooks. I was given a box silver ones and for a couple of years they were my prized possesions. If I remember right my first mahseer 20+ lb was caught on one of these hooks.
I then discovered the Gamakatsu's.... the Octopus hooks (6/0). Back then the rage was black hooks so it had to be Gamakatsu's Octopus Black hooks. They were the right size and I caught many a fish on them. Life was simple till one day Renuka produce an Owner Cutting Point hook from his bag and presented it to me. What a hook!!! I used that hook for a whole season and still have it lying somewhere in a tackle box. Now the quest was on for Owners. For the last 4-5 years all my mahseer have been caught on these Owners. I'm sitting on packets of them. Hopefully my quest for the perfect mahseer hook has ended with these Owners.

Owen, I guess you mean 'worm hooks'( What i don't trust are the Mustad's with the slits on the shank to hold bait in place. Had my share of woes with them. ). I use them only for catfish and tilapia. They're really flimsy hooks and would probably break if used for mahseer.


While fishing for Mahseer, i never put on a small hook, just because the fishing is slow. Big mistake.

I agree with you on that one Owen. When the fishing's slow, hooks remain the same size and I increase the size of the ragi ball. It's just a matter of time then.

Another thing...... when the action slows down I fish a second rod with a smaller hook and bait. But the main rod always stays the same. If the bites start to come on the rod with the smaller bait, I still don't change the setup on my main rod, but just take it as a sign that a big fish is on its way.

Regards,
Mighty Marlin.

I am with you on this MM, only that Circle Octopus hook how the heck do they work! We must meet and discuss this. However i really don't know where Rusty got his info from.

The only trouble with taking out that small rod when the fishing is slow, is the odds of loosing the big rod if you put it down for even a little while.
I remember a guy sitting at crocodile rocks who did just that.
Whoop his mahseer rod was gone. Never to be seen again!
I think he was a Wasi member!

Hi Owen,

The Gamakatsus I used to use are these......

http://www.gamakatsu.com/catalog/octopus.htm

I do not use circle hooks of any sort for freshwater fishing. The circle hook is basically a live/dead bait hook. The bend in the point is so that it catches in the lip/jaw of the fish and is not swallowed. Also as JB and Bobby pointed out you don't strike when using a circle hook.

I also think a hook with a wide gape, short shank, and slightly kirbed is the way to go for mahseer.

The Owners I presently use are SSW with CUTTING POINT, I've seen these (SSW with SUPER NEEDLE POINT) which look pretty good as well, but have never used them. Have a look at the link below.....

http://www.ownerhooks.com/pages/products/hooks/allpurposebaithooks.htm

Regards,
Mighty Marlin.

Hi MM,
I have been through at least fifty Owner cutting point. No problem good hooks, but have heard of some hooks breaking. Whether they were Owner or immitations i have no idea. Only one problem with Owner is the cost. With the river being full of rocks and snags, they go blunt very easily. and don't sharpen to original codition that easily.
By the way i have some 8/0 Owner Aki Twist which are great with chilwa, but i don't see them advertised, i think they close out at 6/0 at the Owner site. However i will check out your post to see if you have spotted the bigger ones.
Regards
Owen

Hi Owen,
but have heard of some hooks breaking. Whether they were Owner or immitations i have no idea.
Wow that's a first!

If I remember right I paid about 30 bucks a hook when I bought them last. I think they're well worth it for that price.

Are these the hooks you're talking about? Are they made of the same gauge of wire as the All Purpose Bait Hooks? Or are they thicker?

http://www.usangler.com/product.cfm?model=SSW%20AKI%20Twist%E2%84%A2%20Saltwater%20Hooks&manufacturer=Owner&type=Hooks

I have some of the 'Gorilla' hooks lying about, but I think they're too thick. May work well with crab, but have never tried them.

Regards,
Mighty Marlin.

Hi Owen,

The reason I was told not to use hooks meant for the sea (stainless as opposed to high carbon) was that they are more corrosion resistant and hence more likely to stay put in the mahseer's mouth if the line broke.

Regardless of which angling god uses what, would you agree with the above? Serious question, not taking the piss.

Rustam

I haven't suggested anything....

Think you need to lie down. Terrible thing, this old age. Tch...

[quote=]"Rustam BanaThe reason I was told not to use hooks meant for the sea (stainless as opposed to high carbon) was that they are more corrosion resistant and hence more likely to stay put in the mahseer's mouth if the line broke. Rustam[/quote]

Hi Rustam,

From what I have read, irrespective of what hook you use, when one of them is imbedded into a fishes mouth and stays there for a while, very quickly it forms an abscess and the membrane around the hook hardens and the entire thing just falls off.

Several years ago I was checking this out myself because of some stainless steel trebles I had bought.

I now use VMC hooks, the guys were kind enough to send me a load of hooks (all trebles) FOC.

Thanks, Bobby. It's good to know that.

Rustam

Exactly what I do as well, however some of the new hooks I have are something more than than...

Pat,

If a scratch is all it takes, then all my hooks are pointed enough. Not sure about the sharpness though.

Cheers.

Rustam

Rusty,

My test is a little bit more 'dangerous'. I place the hookpoint against the pad of my thumb, GENTLY push it forward and lift, see whether the point can flick a bit of the skin.

You didn;t hear from me, okay (just in case you end up as a walking kavadi)

><<:>