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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:52 am 
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Fishaholic

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:10 am
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Location: Chandigarh
Gentlemen,
I post some photographs. You can see the blotchy trout. I also post photos of the brown and the rainbow to show you what they looked like from the same stream,same day. Initially I thought this was a fungus. I brought this trout home and analyzed it .The flesh under the blotches was firm. The fins which had the blotches had the same flexibility and strength as the non blotched part.None of the fins showed any sign of being eaten away by fungus etc. I even tasted the blotched flesh. It was as dark as the colour on the surface and the taste was even throughout. So fungus / disease was ruled out .
In my recent trip to Banjaar (HP) ,I caught a similar trout (I did not take pic’s this time). I met this gentleman from IFS(Forest) Posted in Delhi who was out with his Hungarian friend and they were doing nature study and he remarked “ see whats happening when we introduce a new species” he probably also used the word “mindlessly introduce”–he was obviously referring to the rainbow trout’s introduction to the Indian waters. I have asked people from zoology and their thoughts are different from each other.
Please study this and see if we are on to a new mutation between the brown and the rainbow and suggest a name for it.looks like Camo trout

http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... allgg1.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ll2xw5.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... allpl9.jpg

Cheers –Tight Lines…Ham


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:44 pm 
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Location: Mumbai
Interesting post.
Are'nt both the brown and the rainbow introduced species?
If the fungal infection is limited to the skin,the flesh beneath would be normal wouldnt it? At least in humans it would :wink:
Regards,
Yaj.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:35 pm 
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Hi Hamdhingra
Good observation. In England and the US, brown and rainbow coexist in many lakes and rivers. Any reports about cross breeding and its impacts ??? I know for sure that many new stains have been developed in fisheries. But a wild X-breed, i am not sure how will it go in the long run?
Cheers
Sualeh


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:04 am 
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Location: 31°25'38.13"N, 76°26'17.69"E
Hi Ham,
Thanks for the input on Ropar...

Anyway, back to the query... My guess (without having studied the actual specimen) would be a genetic disformity, probably due to in-breeding; something akin to leukoderma in humans... the chances are very high that its a genetic mutation rather than a X-breeding situation. Like sualeh said... in the west, they co-exist together...no problem...
the problem begins when you release a few hundred to estblish a wild population... genetic-bottleneck!!!

Would love to check outan actall specimen though...
Cheers,

IG


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 Post subject: brown and rainbow
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:07 am 
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Fishaholic

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Location: Chandigarh
The brown came in more than a hundred years ago and has well established itself in the Indian waters. But it grows slow. A mere 5-7 inches in length in as many as 4 yrs under the best of conditions. The rainbow was then brought in about 10 yrs ago and though studies vary , it grows to the same length in about 7-8 months. Thus it appears that the rainbow is all set to be more available in the waters.
IG… Yes I thought of hyper pigmentation / leucoderma, as both of these leave the living healthy. But after the remarks I got in Banjaar , I thought there was more to it. Genetic bottlenecking is something our people in the Central Gov should look into. I will give this point to the zoology people. Let them give this feedback .If nothing we could yearly have some stock exchanged between the East, North, and South. That may have an impact towards healthier fish.
Cheers….Ham


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:53 pm 
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Hi Hamdhingra

Some input from Pakistani trout waters. Rainbows were introduced in early sixties whereas brownies are there since a century, as you mentioned. Since than, they have coexisted, specially in lakes. As per my knowledge, no X breeding has been noticed yet. Though slow growing, no problems have surfaced for browns breeding in the wild whereas despite their fast growth, rainbow breeding in the wild has been extremely poor. Reasons are not fully known. Therefore, rainbows in Pakistan are bred in hatcheries only and than stocked in lakes/provided to private fishfarmers. I am not sure how rainbow breeds in the wild in India, but if situation is same as in Pakistan, than i wonder howmuch are the chances of X breeding with the browns.

Cheers

Sualeh


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:42 pm 
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Fishaholic

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I have seen trout with such markings in the region where Im from, and their are no wild Rainbows in those waters. Furthermore i saw a pic of a large brown from Australia with with the same colouration.

Brown trout have only been around in my area since the 40's and the initial source was a few barrel fulls that came from Kashmir to Gilgit in 1920 and then onwards to Chtral in the 40's, I also concur that genetic bottlenecking would seem to the reason for these mutations.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Fishaholic
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Hi Ali
Nice to have an expert view from a person who has been raised around trout waters. But Ali, I have many a times caught rainbows from Satpara Lake, Upper Katchura Lake etc. The fishery guys have been releasing rainbows as well in the wild, specially in the past when the orders from the private farmers were not many. Nowadays, they prefer to release only brown trout in the wild . Do you have some reliable information about rainbow breeding in the wild? As far I know, it does not breed in the wild in Pakistan. What are the chances of X breeding then?? I am sure you will comeup with a valueable input.

Cheers

Sualeh


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:43 pm 
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Fishaholic

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I can say with a high level of certainty that the Rainbow does not breed in the wild in most of Pakistan. Their are no Rainbows whatsoever in Ghizer and only in private ponds in Chitral (where I practise my flycasting on them.)

The only exception would be the Neelum Valley in Azad Kashmir, I think the Rainbow has been establisehd in Kashmir since the days of the British Raj.

The production of fertile offspring from a corossbreeding between Browns and Rainbows would be quite difficult as the Brown belongs to the Atlantic Salmon group and the Rainbow to the Pacific Salmon group, thus they are genetically disimilar.


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 Post subject: talking further
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:42 am 
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Fishaholic

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Location: Chandigarh
Picture 2 shows physical similarity to a great extent. Genetic dissimilarity may be there today but in the chain/process of evolution, we see how species modified themselves to suit/adjust to the environment. Interbreeding is not far away - it may be 10 a 100 or a 1000 yrs.
My experience tells me that if we were to interbreed them in a nursery (for the sake of close observation) - the offspring would be born -but genetically weak with few survivors -it would be these survivors which would then have the jeans of both and breed with both the brown and the rainbow to create a new one. It is probably happening. I wish we have more observatories. Actually our biggest observatories are "Anglers Themselves"

About the rainbow not breeding so well in natural surroundings , I feel that since it is a fast growing fish - it lacks maturity which comes only with time. Take the example of broilers/turkeys /quails reared in captivity (for their fast growth gene.) vis-a-wee their counterparts outside. U can not expect meat birds to be breeders .So the rainbow suffers this disadvantage. Plus What really works is a MATURE hen with a young male. It is these mature hens that are probably lacking in numbers.
Warm Wishes….Ham (in thought)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:28 pm 
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Location: 31°25'38.13"N, 76°26'17.69"E
Ali wrote:
the initial source was a few barrel fulls that came from Kashmir to Gilgit in 1920 and then onwards to Chtral in the 40's, I also concur that genetic bottlenecking would seem to the reason for these mutations.


The off-spring of the barrel fish have been reared again and again... there is no diversity being added to the gene-pool... the genes that came in the barrels have stayed... the dominant ones have manifested.

To beat this problem, in the early 90's, the HP fisheries dept. started to import fry from scandinavia, in order to strenghthen the gene pool. For some vague sarkari reason, the project was discontinued after a few batches were imported... the same trout and their offspring have been milked over and over again... it added a little variety...blond hair, blue eyes, but did not do much!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:27 am 
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Ali wrote:
Azad Kashmir,


sorry my friends from Pakistan, just keep it as Kashmir.... we call it here as POK


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:06 am 
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santosh wrote:
Ali wrote:
Azad Kashmir,


sorry my friends from Pakistan, just keep it as Kashmir.... we call it here as POK


way to go santosh... i agree!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:57 am 
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Fishaholic

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:39 pm
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Location: Pakistan
Sorry if I have raised some political sentiments, I did not intend to bring politics into my discussion. Its just the colloquial name for the region.

I will not use the term again, but please do not bring up the subject of the Kashmir dispute again.

We're all members of the angling brotherhood here!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:53 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Right on .....


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