INDIANANGLER

This topic has been requested by a learned scholar, and it strikes me as a damn good subject.

On my past fishing trips to northern india (5 to date), i've found myself in the hypocritical position of trying set an example by releasing everything I catch.

The gospel that I really want to preach is 'just release the big spawning females' (ie, anything over 10lbs) ... in moderation, it's ok to take the smaller ones as long as its done on a 'village consent' basis.

I remember witnessing a beautiful 25lb fish being removed from the Kali. It was hauled out of the river on a hand line and thrown unceremoniously up the bank, just so that its head could be crushed by somebodies foot ... oh well, at least it didn't suffer too much.

To my mind, there's no reason to keep a fish tied up on a stringer if it's not going to be kept for food. A piccie or two as soon as its landed is ok, but that can be done without having to tie it up for hours. Unhooking mats are useful, but they're not essential as long as you're careful and thoughtful towards the fish.

Really, if a fish is being returned then it shouldn't be necessary to lift it out of the water, other than for a brief photo.

Andy,

We all can be a bit extra careful in handling Mahseer and releasing them. Using barbless single hooks as opposed to trebles may also help. With little Mahseer waters & Mahseer left it is one of the many things we can do.

Hey please love my fish. They let you catch them (you aren't smart enough to do it on your known). All I ask you to do is this.
1
Use a better line, tackle and rods so that you don't have to fight and tire them out too much. Exhaution builds up lactic acids in their muscles and blah blah blah they don't recover.
2.
Once you have got Mr mahseer to the bank you get into the water. Don't take him out. Get a pair of old cotton gloves (female scooter riders wear them all the time) and handle them in the water with these on. Be very gentle while taking the hook out. If set too deep cut the hook. I have seen fish with old rusted hooks doing very well.
3.
Get your camera ready before you strike a pose. Once the camera is ready don't say 'cheese', instead cradle the mahseer like a baby and up count till three. Remember: no holding up from the gills or with the stringer or by the lip.
4.
Put Mr Mahseer back in the water at once after the snap. Rock him gently facing the flow of the water where possible. Only after you feel him get back his energy should you leave him. This might take a few minutes so be patient.
5.
Feel hounored that you actually met such a miracle.

Mahaseerken!

That's brilliant!!

Cheers

Vedan

Hi Mken,
Nicely put across mate!
Regards
Owen

Hey M-Ken... Nicely done mate....

Hey own, the MCs of Wasi wanted one or two landing bags to be kept at the hut (remember at the AGM) what happened?

They are out of stock with the manufacturer. I have ordered 4 nos along with rod rests, as ome of our AI members have been wanting them.
As soon as they are ready, they will be sent to me.
Regards
Owen

Hi Mahaseerken,

That is the procedure I introduced on the Cauvery late 70's and early 80's when anglers from abroad started fishing as guests of WASI. These were the standing rules for members too but sadly discontinued. I am glad you have mentioned fish not to be held by the gills and the way a fish must be released. I hope anglers in the south will take note. NO ROPES THROUGH THE GILLS PLEASE.

Keep in touch

Don

My thoughts are that trebles are ok, but it's best to pinch down 2 of the barbs. When fishing with single hooks, afraid I'd always go for the barbed ones (strong ones at that ...)

The issue that I was trying to raise was what sort of an example should we be setting to local communities?

Surely it's better to acknowledge a tasty food source which can be legitamately harvested within certain guidelines?

I dunno, it's easy for me. On my trips I'm a visiter, and hence an outsider. Others will no doubt have different ideas....

Hi Andy,
Catch and release in a humane way should be practiced not only for mahseer, but for any other species of fish, unless they are definately going to be eaten. We need to practice this in front of the locals, and show them we care.
I know this could cause some turmoil when done in the presence of hungry people, and some compromise is required, but it is possible to promise them some food if certain species are caught.

On fish handling during weighing and photo sessions, as suggested by other anglers, we should always carry a camera while at the water, and if possible photograph and release the fish immediately.
Ideally all photographs should be taken standing in the water, with the fish as close to the water level as possible. If it has to be on the banks, use a landing mat whenever possible, and the photograph taken in a kneeling position with the fish supported properly.
Pour liberal amounts of water over the fish during the minutes that it is out of the water, be aware that the clock is ticking, and the fishes life is in your hands.
I tend to get a bit frantic during this time, so if you ever see me that way, please understand why.
Regards
Owen

Owen, what is say is perfect but it was mentioned earlier to use cotton gloves, so that the fish doesnt slip from your grip.

I don't think that is adviseable, it will remove much of the slime from the fishes body. The anglers hands need to be wet before touching the fish.
Regards
Owen

Owen, I'm not sure that I entirely agree with you on this point. Bottom line is that mahseer are the the most accessable source of protein for many people living in the mountains. There aren't too many other options .... i've tried living off snow trout & it aint easy ... too many bones & not enough carbohydrates ..... (plus, they're bloody difficult to catch)

Hi Guys,

On the issue of handling and releasing fish, I will send an email to JLR covering the following:
- Use of landing mats or even a sheet of wet plastic.
- Soft Nylon stringers to be used to avoid damaging the mouth.
- Weigh, photograph and release the fish where it was caught. Do not tow the fish back to the camp tied to your coracle. Too bad if you have forgotton your camera or weighing scale. The Gillies to implement this.
- No weighing the fish on the stringer. Use a sling / cradle.
- Keep the fish out of the water for the shortest possible time.Keep it wet.
- Allow the fish to recover,by rocking it back and forth till it gets enough oxygenenated water and can swim away.
- Hold on to the fish if it goes 'belly up' and wait for it to recover.
- Use cotton gloves to keep a grip on the fish.

Have I missed out something important??

I am not bringing up the issue of hooks just yet as anglers may protest.

I will ask JLR to get every angler to sign on this document and give them a copy of the same.

Ignorance cannot be an excuse for anglers to ill treat fish. WASI too could follow the same procedure for their members.

I need a heads up on this before I act.

I will write to JLR in my capacity of 'Travel Agent' as I promote their properties.

I will need all your support to push this through.

Cheers!

Outrigorsandeep

Hello Sandeep,

Except in India nowhere else in the world anglers are permitted to tie fish which are to be released. Very strict rules on handling such fish prevail. In the Gulf where I have done deep sea fishing for the past six years boat skippers and anglers are prevailed upon by the UAE govt to release sailfish and very large kingfish after weighing, photographing and tagging.All skippers do not comply but the one who takes me and my sons does. In the deep sea and with a swell handling such huge fish is not only difficult but hazardous. The sails have long pointed bills which can pierce a limb with devastating results and a big king is likely to lash out and break limbs. Except for the hook no other foreign body should lodge in the mouth of a fish.

If the physiology of a fish is understood the passing of a string even a soft cotton cord through the gill and mouth will injure the delicate filaments on the gills which are in reality blood cells. Fish depend on oxygen as much as we do. In us if an artery in the neck is severed the brain is starved of oxygen and the victim goes into a coma and eventually dies. In a similar manner bleeding gills deprives the fish of oxygen and it dies a slow death.

To revive a mahseer in order to release it it must not be rocked back and forth. The backward movement is equivalent to towing a fish backwards. In an exhausted state, particularly a large mahseer its gill covers are open and a backward movement will force water through the gills in the wrong direction and drown the fish. The mahseer is cradled in the arms of the individual who is releasing it, the fish's belly rests in the palms, and the fish faces into the current. It is released only when it can swim away on a even keel.

JLRs first brochure contained a picture of a large mahseer being weighed in a net type of sling and without a string drawn through its mouth and gills. The sling was an improvement on the type I introduced for WASI's first camp for overseas anglers in 1981. So, the procedure of landing and releasing mahseer is not new to either to JLR and WASI.

The manhandling of mahseer was brought to the notice of WASI in 1995 and to JLR as recently as 2004 to no avail.

I have made postings on the handling and releasing of mahseer but apparently you have not read them.

I will support every project launched to ensure the survival of the mahseer of the Kaveri on the condition rules are made based on the foregoing and strictly adhered to.

Best regards

Don

Yes, if we love the sport & fish do the handling such that the fish survive & thrive. If it has to be killed do it quick, too.

Hi Don,

I am against tying a fish through the gills, gills = vital organ. We have been through this debate on IA in the past as well and have been assured by Mahseer gurus that it is safe and I am going to take their word for it. I am however going to create a bit or a stir with my comments that follow but I am going to stand by them.

By no means am I saying that poor handling practices are acceptable but what I believe is more damaging and lethal is a fish swallowing a hook, I have seen numerous fish killed in this manner. After all playing a fish where a hook goes beyond the throat therefore into the gills or some other vital organ and the pressure generated on that organ through the fight is lethal itself. I have got a question for all of you guys who fish with live bait, honestly how many times does a fish swallow the hook? Just because a fish swims away looks OK for that moment, we think it IS fine, that she dies and no one sees the carcass does not mean the fish has survived. We have discussed lactic acid buildup in a fish due to prolonged fights, we have discussed the survival rate of fish with hooks imbedded into the mouth but we have never discussed a fish swallowing a hook, because I think we all know the answer to that and don’t want to confront that issue. I think we must.

Going back to handling a fish for release, I was discussing this with Bop’s yesterday about how a landing mat helps etc and I agree, holding a large fish down is a task and there are certain basic rules that must apply to make good handling practices, then there are some that take it a bit too far. Fish are a lot tougher than we give them credit for and what I think really kills the fish more than anything else is the fight and how it is hooked. I have not seen a discussion on this forum about how not to get a fish to swallow a hook, hooking a fish in the mouth and hooks that promote that, especially wide gap hooks. I for one gave up fishing live/fresh bait long time ago, took up to lures and stuck to it because if this.

Believe me I have seen an APALLING number of “released” dead fish because of swallowing a hook. We are all part of the same hypocrisy.

Bobby

Thanks Bobby for your response. If a so called mahseer guru says that passing a string through the gills and mouth of a mahseer does not harm it he knows nothing about fish and in all probabilty learned his fishing on the Kaveri from the ghillies who are professional poachers and adopt crude methods used by the latter. I would like to meet these so called gurus who evade the truth from ignorance bordering onto lunacy.

There is a worldwide lobby against sportfishing which term it as a cruel indulgence and there is a possibility of one of these NGOs whose members are armchair conservationists stepping in to cause a stink to attract the attention of the government. Angling could meet the fate of licensed hunting. Where laws apply to the law abiding citizen alone.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the issue of fishing with live bait. If you are implying I am one of them I assure you I avoid any possibility of the fish swallowing the hook even though I use live bait only ocassionally while trolling. The bait is rigged with a single hook on the head held by a rubber band. When a fish strikes the bait invariably falls off and the fish is hooked on the lip. The landing rate using this method is very poor and is employed for species which must be released. I learned the method from the skipper in the Gulf who takes me out .

Regards.

Don

Hi Don,

Noted, No, I am not implicating you with anything, I was only making a statement about hook swallowing because I have really seen things in that department, next time I will take some pictures of these dead fish and post them.

I troll Fresh Bonito and Spanish Mackerel as well for larger game fish with release clips at times, but they are trolled like a lure. I will be in Dubai on the 8th of March, maybe we can catch up.

Contrary to popular belief that we only string fish in India, here’s a picture of a World Record Barramundi taken in Australia that proves otherwise, I presume this fish was released, note the Nylon string through the Gills, and what looks to me like pretty stiff coarse cod. This from a very popular Aussie writer and TV show's book.

Thanks Bobby, thats a beautiful barra. It is the answer to every barra angler's prayer.

I am based in Bangalore and will miss you in Dubai. Won't be going there before the end of the year. Maybe we will meet up sometime. My son Syddon is coming down and we will meet in Chennai on the 11th to do a days trolling for big kings and if we are lucky get stuck into a sail. The information on movement of baitfish is encouraging and presence of dorados and kings is reported.

Best wishes

Don

All the best Don, catch a few Kings and use the under belly strip trolled works great on Sails..cut just in front of the pelvic fins towards the vent. Tie and run the hook through the hard part of the pelvic. Fork the end into a "V"..

Kings can get pesky after you have landed a few

Very interesting post.

Without a doubt, stringers will damage mahseer. As mentioned by others, the 'experts' are quite often relying on outdated methods of fish handling, I think. That is probably the kindest way to put it, as they will need to learn how to handle fish.

I have designed a simple unhooking mat, two of which are being made in Mysore as we speak. One is for CWS, the other I'll use then donate to WASI just before I leave in April.

As for deep hooking mahseer, I can't see how it would happen. In my experience, they bolt as soon as they feel the hook on their lips.
Perhaps it is due to completely burying the hook in a ragi mudeh?
Leave a little of the point showing, or fish the bait on a hair rig in slower water.

Having seen a few attempts at handling mahseer on the bank, you need to be organised and most of all; don't panic.
Most fish will survive out of water for quite some time. That doesn't mean I advocate leaving them out of water, but simply that they can survive for at least five to ten minutes with little ill effect.
As before, make sure the fish is allowed to recover, supported in the water, until it kicks away itself. That may well be why stringers are still used extensively; to allow the fish to recover. It is still much better to hold them, though.

It seems WASI have a good knowledge of fish handling, I assume JLR are in a similar situation. If they have a few gillies who cling to the old ways, make sure no one uses those gillies until they adapt!

Thank you Bobby, I will follow your advice on trolling for sails. Have a nice time in Dubai.

Don

Thank you Steve for the words of wisdom.

I do not believe Bobby meant mahseer and I have never known one to swallow a baited hook even with the point concealed.

As for mending old ways. Forget it.

Don

Hi,

Met Karthik, chief naturalist, of JLR today and briefied him on the subject. He is very keen to implement what we believe is the 'best practice' of landing fish and releasing them. I told him about getting anglers of JLR who pay for the fishing permit, to read and sign a 'best practice' document so 'ignorance' is not an issue. He said he would try to push it through JLR management.

May I request all to help me finalise the 'best practices'. We do not need seasoned anglers who are into conservation to disagree once we decide on the 'best practices'unless science or research provides new inputs.

I am driving this initiative as JLR has the most number of anglers on the river and therefore the most impact.

More posts please???


Outrigorsandeep

Thats fine Sandeep. Everything depends on the final draft. The right procedure would be all interested members meet, elect a chairman followed by election of members to an ANGLING RULES drafting committee. A certain amount of time will be given for the presentation of the draft to the members who attended the first meeting, the matter will be debated at length, amendments made if found necessary and approved.

This won't be the first time rules will be framed for angling on the Kaveri. Rules were introduced by WASI in 1977/78 and were scrapped later.

Lets hope for the best.

Don

Hi Sandeep,

Handling the fish with gloves is not a good idea as it takes off much of the slime from the fish. Wet hands are the way to do it. Excessive body contact should also be avoided.

While the fish is on the landing mat, water should be poured over the fish.

I don't believe in using nylon ropes as stringers, and only use a very soft cotton rope that is not found in the Indian market, if i am fishing alone and need to get my camera out. The fish is never kept on a stringer for more than a minute or two during which time they recuperate and off they go.

The worst thing that anyone can do is weight the fish from a stringer and not to name anyone, but this is a sad practice that some experienced anglers have been adopting that needs changing.

The best place to take pictures is while standing in the water, so that if the fish slips from your grip, it does not hurt itself.

If a picture has to be taken on land, it should be in a kneeling position with a landing mat under the fish.

A fish that slips and falls on land is likely to be permenantly injured. It has been suggested to me that some of the rohu with deformaties that we caught at the WASI lakes may have experienced such treatment in the past.

We all make mistakes in fish handling at some time in our lives, but we need to learn and improve on this every time we are out on the water.
Regards
Owen

Thanks Owen,

I will wait for a few more days for more anglers to contribute to this thread. I will then put dome the "do's and dont's" and forward it to Karthik at JLR.

I have a soft nylon stringer which is not like the hard nylon rope available in the market. Can this be used or would you still prefer a cotton Manila rope? I have noted that stringers need to be avoided as far as possible and this can be done if JLR buys landing mats / weighing bags.

Sandeep

As said, "rope" isn't suitable. I personally prefer a super soft nylon cord with a loop at one end that clips into a small caribena.
As said, this is used simply to retain the fish in the water until you get to land and are ready for a photo and is never used to lift or pull the fish. Great care must also be taken to ensure that the cord runs along the inside of the gill cover and does not come into contact with the gills themselves.
The advantage of the caribena system is that the loop (spliced or whipped, never knotted) can be unclipped and gently slid out once the fish is weighed without messing about untying knots or cutting the cord.

Of course, a well designed and properly used stringer is not a replacement for a proper weigh sling and landing net - just a means of minimising the time spent out of the water and the stress to the fish.

Personally, I tie the stringer to my legf but keep an open knife available because I'm a softy european with a very healthy respect for the brute power of crocodiles.

Owen is right about the slime but I use Gloves most of the time (wet cotton gloves, wetting the gloves helps), I would rather have some slime off the fish than drop the fish down. It is a matter of judgment.

Depending on the terrain I also employ a Lip Gaff, to land most of my fish.

All of my fish are lure caught so they swim off really well..

Sandeep, it is not adviseable for an individual by himself to frame the rules especially to string or not to string is being debated. I have posted a procedure to you for drafting the rules and I am sorry it appears you haven chosen to ignore me.

If stringing is allowed even as suggested by Steve and Owen there is no guarantee the majority of anglers will follow the procedure. I have stated my reasons over and over again based on my personal experience with the mahseer of the Kaveri over a period of 35 years.

Some years ago mahseer were tagged but not a single one was caught againt. Isn't this fact food for thought?

We must also remember the mahseer is not our property to be dealt with as we like nor is it JLRs or anybodyelse's. Neither are we the arbiters of life and death. I can assure you if stringing is made the rule in black and white there will be serious repercussions.

Don

Hi Don,
I am sure we all agree with you that stringing is not the norm, and that immediate catch and release is the ultimate way to do it irrespective of the type of stringer used.
I am also sure that Sandeep is just collecting all the data from anglers before presenting the best practices on to JLR, and believe me Sandeep has the best interests of the fish in mind though he may reletavely new to the sport.
Just how seriously this will be taken by JLR and the experienced guides, remains to be seen.
Please tell us more about the tagging program that you mentioned about, as this is the first time that i have heard of it.
Thanks & Regards
Owen

Thanks Owen, unfortunately just about three of us have responded to Sandeep's queries and rules based on the opinion of so few, logically, will not be valid. Since stringing is widely practiced and the majority are silent on the matter my advice is not to formulate a rule that permits stringing even in its most sophisticated form.

Give me your e-mail id and I will tell you about the tagging.

Nice hearing from you. Tight lines.

Don
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Hello Don,

My apologies if you thought I chose to ignore your previous post on the framing of best practices. I respect your views and your experience.

As Owen mentioned I have been fishing the Cauvery for about 10 years, and not being aware of fish handling practices, have allowed Gillies to manhandle fish without raising any objection because of my ignorance. As a conservationist committed to saving our wildlife and fish, I now want to make a difference by educating the stake holders,anglers,JLR and the Gillies.

I have learnt a lot from this forum, and want to implement the best practices quickly, before more damage is done. The Gillies too need to be educated.

May I request someone with more angling experience than I have, to put together some of the do's and don't's with some sense of urgency so that we could bring it to JLR's attention.

Currently, other than releasing Mahseer, JLR has no other guide lines for the anglers,not even a bag limit for Murrel.

The sooner we can set this right the better it will be for fish and future generations of anglers.

Regards,

Sandeep

There are no guarantees for anything for that matter, so when you say what you have quoted about a stringing rule (perhaps a guideline would be more appropriate), of how it should be done then it is better to be there at least most concerned anglers will do it the right way if they have guidelines and not ignorant of that. The other thing is to have it made totally illegal which I presume would be a real task enforcing. You can see what people think on this very Forum there are definately 2 factions one that oppose the other that does not. I would go after something where all see alike.

The context of your second statement seems to put the blame to stringing to the demise of all Masheer that were caught, highly unlikely I would say. Again, I reiterate that I do not condone stringing I have been at the opposite end of the debate to Owen when this was discussed earlier. I believe that other factors are far more instrumental to killing the fish than stringing. It is nice to see someone campaign for something like this but, it would be better if our energies are directed to matters that are in need of dire attention to what is really exterminating this great fish.

Hi, Bobby,

I have in my earlier postings described a method introduced by me and followed by JLR when they established their first fishing camp at Bheemishwari.

I meant stringing could be one reason for the demise of the large mahseer.

Could you suggest a middle way.

Don

Sorry to sound rude but there is no middle way.

Stringers or tying up fish in any way is hard on them.

And what for.... just coz you forgot to carry your camera... or need to brag/show off to a few people back at the camp.... or you just can't get over the fact that you caught such a big one.

Please "CATCH and RELEASE". And do not CATCH, KEEP And RELEASE.

Sorry once again if this sounds hard. But it is very important to me that my daughter catches mahseer. And that already seems like a dream.

peace love and harmony mates. And a long life for the fish.

Don, I have not fished for mahseer, I have seen videos where fish been strung in a very gentle manner. The impression I get here is there are 2 schools, one where the likes of Owen reside who carefully string and another that practice harsher methods (and may not be present on the forum). I don’t understand the purpose of stringing I really do not, perhaps some one can educate me, why a fish should be tethered and kept.

In saltwater if I am to release a fish, where it needs to be lifted and cannot be done by hand, I "Lip Gaff" the fish by inserting the gaff (point only) into mouth and around the lower lip sure that fish will have a sore lip for a while bit the gaff does not come in contact with any vital organ at all.

Bobby, agree with you- the lip gaffing sounds ok, no vitals involved, any one, includinga newbie can do it.I'm sure the fish would raher have a sore lip than a damaged gill!

Stringing thru the gills can and will have repurcussions-minor or major! wouldnt want some newbie all fired with conservation zeal try to string a Mulley/Goonch, do we
Best
Axx

Mulley will make mince meat of the poor fellow

or vice versa-newbie will damage gills beyond recovery
I think Lip stringing is the way to go...maybe, if I land 100 fish a year and learn to handle them correctly, gill stringing is ok, else, lip stringing.My 2 bits!
The best thing is the C&R being advocated and practiced, hopefully Mken and I can take our kids out for Mahseer ...?

Mulley?!?! is that what scares you freshwater boys..

Any comment Fred

Talking about Mulley!!! I once caught a big one (15 kgs atleast, it was 4 feet long) at Narora, UP, and it was like an old Hell's Angel. It had an old local hook in it's mouth and half a chilwa when it took my plug. The hook was rusty and in the middle of what can only be called a large corn.

Took the hook out before we made pakoras..... The chilwa was released.

Thanks mahaseerken.

Don

I have seen Lip-Stringing first hand, practiced by old Japanese and Chinese. But all these fish are intended for the pot. I was once strolling Sydney Harbour not fishing that evening but saw this Japanese Guy catch small Snapper, he had them strung on large clips through the lower lip. The real cruel part was he used a sissors to clip of the tail fins and some other fins on the fish to keep them from struggling. They were not clipped deep to draw blood, but deep enough so that the fish had no power. I just moved on..

I don't string a fish I am going to release, I take my picture if I have a camera or want to and then just let it go...

That's the way to go Bobby. Carry a camera and take a pix or else just let them go aqt that time.

Anyway they seem to get bigger when you don't have a camera.

Mulley?!?! is that what scares you freshwater boys..

Any comment Fred

Well Bobster ... Lemme see

1) gaffing a Rawas at high tide off the rocks behind searock .. that used to always scare the shit outta me
2) 35 lbs barrcuda doing its stuff in the boat once landed ... swear u can hear the teeth going snappety snap
3) Freaked out Sail rushing towards the boat and then going ariel
4) Outer Rock at level 1.30 - neck deep in water with rod reel and back pack getting lifted of your feet and coming down without feeling the rocks
5) Same at Bhatiwadi when u missed calculated the tide and had to tie myself once to the pole with my belt and fishing striger and wait out the 4 hours to be able to come back

Shit there are a hell of a lot more stories like swimming back with a Barra over my shoulder at Manori front rock and getting pierced in the back with the dosal fin -- bled like a stuck pig that day ...remedy -- stuffed tabacco in the hole on my back - and danced like Michael jackson on my way to the ferry ----

Bobby, Fred,
What scares me is not the adrenaline and pucker factor-I've seen my share of dangerous game hunting in africa, cape buffalo included.What scares me is there wont be any fish left, not even the bloody mutants we see now, and what do i have to pass on to my kids or teh KIDS in general?
what with the Sarju being given on lease and outward bound camps and welcome to the plastic kingdom!
I totally agree-take a pic if you have to- and release.
Its not the kill, its the thrill of the chase...
Best
Axx

What was scary for me was Gaffing a Very Large MJ in the dead of night in the middle of nowhere. Or when I was trapped Under the a bridge in Balgaon in the middle of the night fishing. Tied my self to the pillar and was going to break the rod tip to breathe, I am not a good swimmer.