INDIANANGLER

Bobby, I have no idea about translocating fish, but there are more black buck and sambhar and partridges in texas than in India-great conservation effort from a few that were taken to US in the 50's.LEgal hunting etc
I have heard the reverse about fish though-the foreign species gobble up the native species and endanger them.Any info on this one? guess this can work both ways? Some ? tilapia species-correct me if I'm wrong with the name or is it catfish? introduced for food here in india(?an african cat?) seem to have rum amok with a massive proliferation (typical indian style family planning! )
Lets hear more about this people, very intriguing and sure will be informative
Best
Axx

The mentioned River Ebro in Spain is an example for "relocation success".

There were only small carp and pikeperch (zander) there, except for the whitefish. the carp were too numerous to grow.

In the early 70ies some german folks went down there and "introduced" the European catfish (Wels). And some American GIs brought some Black Bass with them.

Now, 35 years later you have the introduced fish growing to record sizes !
With a welcome "side effect" that the carp now regularly reach the 40lbs.
The Wels growing to nearly 3 meters and "dontaskemehowmuch" pounds !

The fishing tourism in that region is earning those peoples´living now.

The region was flooded because of an electricity dam and now is a fishing "Mecca".

I thought about introducing the Mahseer especially there, because it´s already "touched" and will do no more harm there, i suppose.
(If it can survive and spawn there, that is !)

Greetings to all of you all around the globe !

And remember : Nature laughs last !

Good luck buddy! Give the baby mahseer protection, and it will eat you out of hose n home.
Regards
Owen

Problem is Tilman, you can never tell what the outcome might be.
Introducing mahseer to the Ebro might be a way of providing more interesting fishing. They might reach huge sizes like the cats and carp have. They might not have any adverse effect on the other species in there at all.

Or, they could completely change the ecology of the entire river and it's tributaries, leading to the loss of the carp, cats, bass and others. They could cause the collapse of the whole fishing industry there.

If you doubt the risks, look at how tilapia are cropping up all over the Kaveri system now.
See how KHV sent several fisheries in the UK to the brink of collapse last summer, caused by stocking of scientifically mutated fish. Even on fisheries where they weren't stocked, the virus was moved in and in some cases led to the death of hundreds of thousands of carp.
Look at how carp have driven Murray Cod to the edge in Australia.

There are too many instances of non-native species overrunning native species to take the risk, even though there have been some success stories.

Currently, we are looking at the Kaveri to determine if the wrong type of mahseer has been stocked. That may have had an adverse effect on the position of the native type in the river, and we're talking the same basic type of fish. Not some completely new species that will be desperate to carve it's own niche in the ecosystem.

It's good that you are thinking about how to preserve the mahseer, but I for one think stocking them into a completely new environment is a step too far.

Steve,
Personally, i probably wouldn't fish for them in Europe, as it is as much the surroundings/wildlife/scenery as the fish themselves that makes me go to India as often as i can.
Catching them in Spain just wouldn't be the same.
I imagine that they could do okay in stillwaters as well, but again it wouldn't be the same as catching them from a river, much like barbel in England.

Dead right there mate. Although mahseer were once far more widespread than they are now.

Perhaps if someone set up a proper thali joint on top of Mequinenza Dam, I might reconsider .

There's a certain logic to the notion that if mahseer were supposed to be living in the foothills of the Pyrenees, then the good Lord would put them there in first place.

I remember reading once about the introduction of nile perch into Lake Victoria with disastrous consequences ... more than 300 indigenous species (many of which lived nowhere else in the world) were wiped out virtually overnight.

I think that mahseer are a tough and adaptable species of fish, and to my mind the greatest joy of fishing for them is exploring their natural environment.

From my readings I suspect that natural populations exist as far west as Iraq and Afghanistan. It's therefore reasonable to assume that they are also present in Iran.

Heading East, it's fairly common knowledge they're present in Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma and Thailand.

China is still a bit of an unknown (at least to me).

Explore all these areas thoroughly, THEN, maybe we could start thinking about tinkering with the natural order of things ...

Yes they are present in Iran and Afghanistan...I remember reading a book about this

Thought some really great fishing has been produced by introducing alien species into new environments (trout to New Zealand and to the Andes Mountains, for example) it equally possible to have a disaster. The current infestation of the Mississippi River system with hybrid grass carp is driving the local fisheries officials mad and has a strong possibility of destroying the entire ecosystem. Sorry, but much as I admire the mahseer, she belongs to the subcontinent and not to Spain.

Hi is this old sarge from NE? Cant be two for sure!
Welcome aboard!
Axx
(Eljefedouble)

Guy's there was a mention of mahseer surviving in still waters, possible but i do think you need to have water flow in and out for the mahseer to breed naturally. Besides this, what lies at the bottom of the water is as important for the fish to really thrive. A rocky or clean sandy bottom is what is required. I understand some of those lakes in Spain that hold the big cats are actually submerged orange orchards.
But all this talk is irrelevant because you guys can't be serious. So i'm off fishing.

Hi Eljefe,
Yup, it's me spreading information and annoyance all over the net!

Sarge,
Good for you, hope to hear from you often.Get your friends along too...
Best
Axx

Hi Don,
can you tell me whether the fingerlings inducted into the Kaveri in the 80's were of Tor Kudhree, or were these fish already existing in the Kaveri along with Tor Mussullah.
The records at the Tata Power station at Lonavala show that 10000 fingerlings were inducted into the Kaveri from their stock, this info is available on the web, but it is not clear, whether the fingerlings were of the mussullah or Kudhree variety.

Yes Owen, tor khudree fingerlings were released into the Cauvery 1975/76 by yours truly under advice from Mr Kulkarni the then adviser to TATA Electric on their mahseer project on the Lonavala Lake and former Director of Fisheries, Maharasthra. I have seen photos of tor khudree taken 25 years later and to my surprise they were big having outgrown their siblings in Lonavala. I do not beleive these fish are responsible for the sudden decline in numbers, since 2004 to my knowledge, of the 70lb and above tor mussullah. It has to be a fish that multiplies rapidly and is a varacious feeder. This is where correct identification of species is important. A fish wrongly identified as a mahseer and introduced into the Cauvery will create havoc. Steve is of a similar view.

What is worrying is the sudden increase in numbers of what is being called the blue fin mahseer. The normenclature does not fit in with any known species of mahseer but with its blue fins is identifiable with the Malabar Carp which is a strain of the Deccan Mahseer. Ironically both are known by similar names but discovered by two different individuals. The Malabar Carp: barbus tor khudree - Jerdon and the Deccan Mahseer - barbus tor khudree - Sykes. These blue fin fish are now found in every kind of water of the Cauvery River system and as far away as Bheemeshwari. They are exhibiting characteristics and habits of the lesser carps and if they are carp they will eat the mahseer out of the Cauvery in another five years time.

I have watched Deccan Mahseer being taken by anglers, have a weakness for Mepps, and examined the fish for correct identification and I dont remember see a single one with blue fins.

The simple method for identifying a fish as a mahseer is to count the scales on the lateral line: 26 - 28 depending on age. A carp will have 24 scales.

The uninitiated must be helped to use the correct normenclature for each specie. Take for example; a mahseer, tor mussullah, with a gold tint taken on the Cauvery is called a golden mahseer, the tor putitora of the north is also called a golden mahseer but both are two different species. I believe this where we have gone wrong on the Cauvery. Most of us believe we have a fish called just the mahseer and any fish which looks like one is another mahseer.

Will you join a core group which I will propose to set up to research the causes for the decline in the mahseer population and evolve remedies?
I met Jeen recently in Abu Dhabi and did a spot of boat fishing along with my son and son-in-law. He was very kind to have given us an open invitation. He has graciously offered to help with whatever project I have in mind. I will request other members too for thie valuable help.

Don

Don, we need to meet up when I'm in BNG with Dr Mark Everard. We will be taking measurements of all the mahseer we can to establish their characteristics. Hope to get bluefins, as well as khudree and musullah, plus any other we can beg steal or borrow access to.

email me on:
stevenbobbie@yahoo.co.uk
And I'll set up a meet.

regards,
Steve

Good morning Steve, Yes, we must meet. Tell me the date, place and time, others too will be interested.

I will be away from Feb 9 to 18 fishing in the Andaman Sea.

Don

Thank you Owen. We have a lot of work to do and I look forward to others joining the group and putting their heads together.

Don

Looks like everyone is still moving ahead, that's great.
I'll post this in Environment as well, but check these sites out:

a-c-a.org

and

blueprintforwater.org.uk/blueprint.html

Hi everyone,

Sorry for not communicating recently… life and all that… but tried to make quite a long post yesterday but it seems not to have saved. Life and all that… This is a fascinating thread and I have a few points that I hope will add spice:

1. ALIEN INTRODUCTIONS

In my opinion, as a scientist that’s worked on aquatic systems all over the world, a BAD idea!! I’ve worked on the aftermath of carp introductions in Australia, USA, Europe and Africa and it ain’t a pretty sight for the balance and stability of ecosystems. Ditto American crayfish in Africa and Europe, American mink in Europe, Nile Perch outside of their native African range, barbel in some British rivers where they did not occur previously, etc. Also zebra mussels, ruffe, New Zealand swamp stonewort, topmouth gudgeon, sunbleak, etc., etc…. I could go on. Introductions may seem attractive but the downsides for whole ecosystems are potentially vast and certainly too big to risk. For all the ‘successes’ (trout in Nepal, etc.) there is a far bigger dark shadow of failures.

2. CONSERVATION IN SITU

Sadly for the threatened mahseer, the only solution is protecting the rivers in which they occur. Now, mahseer are a lot like salmon in some regards, using whole river systems from headwaters for spawning and nursery areas through to lowland big stretches for summer survival and maximum growth. They need habitat, water quality, adequate flows, seasonality of river discharge, her factors besides to be right, prospering or suffering with whole river systems. Trouble is, development (industry, land use, dams) tends to operate at local river stretch, or at best State only, levels. We need to look broader to see how to protect, restore or mitigate the ‘pinch points’ on the whole system. They can persist in lakes, but they need access to good spawning habitat or these populations are not viable, so there are ways of maximising the opportunity without blocking off development… it is just that we have to look at catchment scale and seek the sustainable solution (not that Europe has any brilliant examples to share beyond the work of the voluntary sector in formation of River Trusts.) How to achieve that in India? That is for all of us who care to deduce.

3. TRUSTING TO TECHNOLOGY
I wish I had the faith to say that the mahseer will still be there when this round of development is complete, noting the previous poster’s point about British salmon. Sadly, British salmon are few and not well!! And as to the burbot, most shad populations, etc… I rather feel that this is nettle we have to grasp together rather than hoping for the best! Same applies to the ‘we’re part of nature so introductions are natural too’ line. We’re natural but that’s no excuse for bombing or machine-gunning cities, or hunting the dodo to extinction!

4. LOCAL SPECIES AND GENETIC STOCKS
The widespread stocking as a panacea worries me for four reasons. (1) It overlooks the importance of protecting or fixing the catchment so that mahseer populations can be self-sustaining. (2) Various species of mahseer are bred at Lonalva (and elsewhere) and it is possible that the ‘wrong’ species may be stocked. (3) Hybrids are bred on these farms and they might get in. (4) Most significantly, genetic diversity is broad within any species and there will be local mahseer strains best adapted to some rivers; these will be swamped if single strains of mahseer are stocked. This matters a lot in terms of protecting the viability of mahseer populations.

5. MAHSEER SPECIES
Mostly, mahseer are record as ‘black’, ‘golden’, ‘silver’,. ‘blue-finned’, etc. We need to get rather more accurate at identifying species to assess their extent and the right ones to stock (or avoid stocking). Steve Lockett and I are working on this, and I hope to circulate a simple ID guide at some stage shortly. But I can’t find good info on Tor kulkarnii (the dwarf maheer). The main reference is Menon (1992), but I can’t track that down or any other good info. Fishbase does not give a lot. Anyone care to share info, better still get me electronic or hardcopy of the Menon (1992) reference? Any help appreciated!!

Looks like Don Smith and Owen may meet up with me and Steve Lockett when we’re in Bangalore… should be a great chat! I guess Steve is setting this up right now as he’s already in India.

Sorry for the long post!!!

Stay lucky,

Mark

Good post! I don't know whether the Indian management system more closely resembles the European or the American but when only the shore owners have access or responsibility for the particular stretch of water, things can get ugly fast. All it takes is one greedy mill or chemical plant owner and you can kiss a ecosystem goodbye! I wish I could be more sanguine but it doesn't seem, from this side of The Other Pond, that federal responsibility on the sub-continent for the fisheries is taken sufficiently seriously. Money first, nature . . . maybe someday. Fingers crossed, y'all.

Good post from Redfin.

At 42, I'm to young to remember the introduction of barbel into the UK's river Severn but grew up listening to my father bemoaning the loss of the dace shoals, roach shoals, trout and chub as a direct result of the introduction. I've watched the changes as the barbel population has gone from the initial post introduction population of lots of small fish to having a large proportion of the rivers biomass tied up in a few big fish. It ain't pretty.
The initial post talks about the improvements to the Ebro system but fails to mention what happened to the native ecology that existed prior to the introduction of Bass, Bleak, Catfish and Zander - the post incorectly assumes that zander were native to the system but they were introduced by German anglers as well. No doubt, there is now a more effective commercial fishery on the Ebro but is that all that matters ?

The presence of big carp and big catfish being percieved as a good thing sadly says more about the current generation of UK anglers than about any kind of sound environmental planning.

Mahseer would undoubtedly be a bad idea in Europe.

Their presence in Europe would undoubtedly be bad for them in India as well because a good deal of pressure to protect and maintain stocks is generated by the income that angling tourisn generates. If the mahseer can be caught in Europe, why bother to protect them in India ?

Sarge,
the Indian management system resembles... an indian system! Always money first.The major river system here near Delhi is teh Jamuna and its a sewer with chemical effluents etc for near on 200Km...


Mark, Good post.
will be good to see the outcome of your confabulations with the Bangalore gang.

Best
Axx

Don,

Sounds like a good trip any pictures?

REgards,

Bobby

Couple of quick thoughts while we are still working on the facts.

Andy; I'm with you when it comes to allowing more people to benefit from 'modern' facilities, but building hydroelectric dams is one of the most environmentally destructive ways of providing power.
Not only does it ruin the ecosystem for most native species, it floods those same people out of their homes and ways of life and leads to large scale degredation of the surrounding land due to salination and siltation.
There have to be better ways to improve the lot of locals, tribals etc, while still protecting the river and it's inhabitants.

Viraj; you are correct to assume that fingerlings stocked from a single brood will devalue the genetic stock. Probably every mahseer that has been stocked into the Kaveri came from an original hatching at Lonavla. They will eventually overrun the native species throughout the river.

As far as Mark and myself have managed to find out, the big mahseer in the Kaveri are mostly khudree. I can't remember the name of the scientist who did the study, but Mark has his book.
He thinks mussulah may be an alien species. He also suggests that every river has it's own 'micro species', so Kaveri khudree will be a little different from Tungabadra khudree.

When we have spoken to the chap in Mangalore, we'll let you all know how it's going. Should be meeting him around first week of April.