->

INDIANANGLER

India fishing forum for all the information you require on angling, equipment, locations and trip reports.
It is currently Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:30 am

All times are UTC+05:30




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Mahseer Species
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:44 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:17 pm
Posts: 776
Would I be right in thinking that the great majority of the Mahseer caught in the upper Cauvery are the Humpbacked Mahseer (Tor mussullah) with a smattering of the blue finned fish (Tor douronensis) that were recently discussed on the forum ?
If other species are caught on the Cauvery, does anyone have photos of fish that have been positivly identified ?

In the north, there is the Golden or Himalayan Mahseer (Tor putitora) which seems to be the predominent species but are any other kinds regularly encountered up in HP or Nepal ?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:59 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:26 am
Posts: 1479
Hi Ken,
You are right about the fish in the Kaveri, however i have a picture of a barrel shaped mahseer of around 28lbs that was caught a while back by an English bloke on the Kaveri. Rather different from the regular Barbus Tor Mussullah. The picture was taken by me.
Will post it and try to remove the anglers identity in case he does not want to be on the web, also have a few more interesting pix for the forum, that i have been promising to post.
All need scanning, will get down to that soon.
Our friends from the north should enlighten us further.
Regards
Owen


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:09 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:39 am
Posts: 1601
Location: Mumbai / India
Hey Owen ... what happened to the Rowen saga .... gone down ??


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:17 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:26 am
Posts: 1479
Send you a pm Fred


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:58 am 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:52 pm
Posts: 106
Ken,

Just some interesting info:

The Tor genus is pretty widespread: from Iraq to India to SE Asia to China. The old books say there were huge mahseer in the Tigris (over 200-lb!!!), but I suppose they are gone now.

India has a few species, the putitora and musullah being biggest. But the books say there are also the red mahseer (kurriah or kukhiah) and brown mahseer (kajra?). I'm not completely sure of the local names.

I believe Myanmar also has putitora, up the Ayerawadi. The old record is around 70-lb.

Malaysia has the red mahseer , Tor tambra, T. Tambroides (local name kelah, sounds close to kurriah!), Tor deuronensis, and the brown mahseer (Lissocheilus hexagonolepsis). In general, the heads are smaller and shorter than the Indian mahseer. Biggest red mahseer to date is 27-kg (58-lb), but anything above 10-lb is now considered a 'giant'. :-)
The brown mahseer grows to 20 lb.

Indonesian and Thai mahseer are similar to the Malaysian ones. A few months ago, I was in Sumatra, came across a pool where the local villagers kept red mahseer. I saw a dozen fish weighing about 25-kg (50-lb).
There are even mahseer in the outlying islands, out to Papua, based on the reports I received from friends.

In China, there is a rare mahseer species , T. yunanensis, a small fish with red, yellow and green colours!

Regards,
><<:>


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:19 am 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:17 pm
Posts: 776
Interesting stuff JB, but I thought the Iraqi fish was the Mangar and rather more closely related to the barbel species of western Europe than to the true mahseers..

I missed out on a chance to target jungle perch (name in BM begins with an "S" but I forget it now) and kelah an my last visit to Malaysia but I have heared of a fishable national park with some monsters in it.

My main interest though was the Indian Mahseer, Fishbase indicates that there are almost a dozen distinct mahseer species growing to sporting size in India alone but nobody seems to be making the effort to distinguish between them.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:13 am 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:52 pm
Posts: 106
Ken,

I stand corrected yet again! I was only quoting a write-up I read long ago, printed during the pre-War days. By the way, that Iraqi fish was landed on a handline!

WRT the jungle perch, it's called sebarau (Hampala Barb, Hampala macrolepidota, IGFA record 6.5-kg). Actually, it's not even a perch, but a piscivorous Cyprinid with a mean bite. Sir George Maxwell (British Resident in Malaya, 1900) called it a jungle perch in his book "In Malay Forests". In an article about 10 years ago, I 'revived' that name, and it stuck :wink:

Er, back to your topic: in the old books on Indian mahseer, it is said that certain 'species' are actually variations of one. Eg. the 'black' mahseer is just a dark version of putitor. I wonder whether the occasional black mahseer caught in Cauvery is also the same as the golden mahseer (humpback).

Also, some fishes may have extremely thick lips and median lobe. They say it's just just an anomaly of the same species.

One thing I notice about Cauvery mahseer: the giant ones are invariably golden mahseer, and not the silver (blue?) ones. The biggest silver we've landed was about 30-lb. Makes me think that they are different species. Are they?

One more thing: the giant mahseer are also the females. This is indicated by the smooth gill plates (male gill plates are rough with tiny 'pits'. Which begs the question: do mahseer change sex, from male to female as they grow older?

This phenomemnon happens for the barramundi (Lates calcarifer). We notice the same for Malaysian mahseer too.

Interesting stuff, don't you think?

><<:>


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:48 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
It seems there has always been a lot of conjecture on the issue of mahseer sub-species.
As I wrote on your mahseer in stillwaters post, Ken, Tata have done some research in a reservoir near Poona, so maybe they have some answers. Although I suspect it's mainly about breeding.

I'll have a chat with my biologist mate - who is interested in mahseer although he has not had a chance yet to visit India - and see if he can come up with a simple way to start to verify the types.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:20 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:26 am
Posts: 1479
junglebum wrote:

Has this been proved by tagging ??


junglebum wrote:
Interesting stuff, don't you think?

><<:>



Hmmmmmm sex changes, very interesting!


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:10 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
I have been doing a little research, mainly courtesy of the Indian Academy of Sciences and am lead to believe that mahseer in India are as follows:
There are eight species, although I have only found descriptions for four, they are:
Tor chelynoides
Tor kulkarni
Tor progenius
Tor mosul

and all the types we know should fit into
Tor khudree
Tor putitora
Tor tor
Tor musullah

Tor khudree should contain all the types of minor mahseer caught in the south. These include yellow and blue finned, Deccan (silver?)and black mahseer, all variations of a single species.

Tor putitora is mainly confined to the north and contains the variations golden, yellow-finned, greyhound and thick-lipped mahseer.

Tor tor is the giant fish known as deep-bodied mahseer (apparently the one with the potential to grow the largest. 70k is believed to be the upper limit), but can also be found as red-finned and is easily confused with:

Tor musullah, the beast of the Kaveri

I will discuss this further with my expert friend to see how we would move the debate forward and get a more conclusive line up.

I have also put answers up on the similar posts about murrel and mrigal/rohu

I am aware that this may not follow what everyone else believes to be the classification, but am quoting from a leading source in the field.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:27 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:12 pm
Posts: 103
Location: New Delhi
The FAO website has a lot of articles on the Mahaseer, most of it emanating from the 30 years of research at Tata Power, Lonavla Reservoirs and Nepal. To reach the articles, search for "FOA AND Mahaseer".

Tor Kulkarni is named after a Mr Kulkarni from Lonavla..

Dont know hw to identify the female/male - will look closely next time


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:46 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
So, did Mr Kulkani breed a new strain of mahseer?

I would imagine mahseer can only be sexed when in spawning trim, which I believe is just before the monsoon. The females would probably be much bigger then, but in a fish with a size range of 10g to 70k it will be very difficult to decide what an adult male looks like.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:04 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
Been trying to find information about Tor douronensis to see if it is the same fish as blue-finned Tor kuhdree. Apparently douronensis is not found in India, but widely throughout the rest of Southern Asia.

Nightmare, or what?

Time to get down to fin ray and scale counts, I think.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:33 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Hi everyone. I'm a new guy on the IndianAngler block, and probably the 'scientist mate' that Steve intends to talk to!! Will be on the Cauvery for the first time in March/April and very keen about it too. I have done some desk-based research and it seems that there are several species of mahseer going by many (often duplicated) names with is enough to confuse anyone!!

As far as I can tell from chats with other mates more familiar with the history of Mahseer fishing on the Cauvery, Tor duoronensis is a deliberate introduction, it not being native to the country. And we all know what a bad idea introductions generally are for ecosystem balance.

I think that Tot tor does not occur in this river... anyone confirm that?

I have a definitive list of world-wide Tor species and where they are thought to live, with duplicates and former names all listed out with them, and I will work this up into something of use in identifying what it is we think we are catching.

However, I have stuggled to find an authoritative source for identifying species by scale and fin spine/ray counts and drawn a blank. Anyone know of one? (Fishbase does not generally have much on this.)

I am also trying to get hold an obscure old fishery survery done on the Cauvery in about 1980... will let you all know if I track it down.

I am writing something up about my trip to the river, and will hapily collate any expert insight or scurulous rumours that anyone has about what fish (not just mahseer) swim there and how they got there if introduced.

Cheers,

Mark


Top
   
 Post subject: Note on Chalakudy River
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:34 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:39 pm
Posts: 755
Location: UAE
Hi Mark,

Good to have someone like you on the forum. Please check out this note on a river in Kerala.

Chalakudy River
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Chalakudy Puzha

Labelled map of Chalakudypuzha
Origin Annamalai hills
Mouth Arabian Sea
Basin countries India
Length 130 km (81 mi)
Source elevation 1,250 m
Avg. discharge 52 m³/s
Basin area 1,704 km² (666 mi²)

Chalakkudy River or Chalakkudy Puzha runs through Chalakkudy town which is the Thrissur District of Kerala state in south India. It is the 5th longest river in Kerala and its basin is between 100 05’ to 100 35’ North latitude and 760 15’to 760 55’ East longitude. This area is located in Thrissur, Ernakulam and Palakkad districts of Kerala. The total drainage area of the river is 1704 km². out of this 1404 km² lies in Kerala and the rest 300 km² in Tamil Nadu. The length of the river is 145.5 km.

Chalakkudy River is the one of very few rivers of Kerala, which is having relics of riparianvegetation in substantial level. The annual report of the National Bureau of Fish Genetic Resources Lucknow, mentioned that the Chalakudy River is the richest river in fish diversity perhaps in India.
The river though has its origin in the Anamalai region of Tamilnadu is actually the collection of the falls from Parambikulam, Kuriyarkutti, Sholayar, Karapara and Anakayam. The famous waterfalls, Athirappilly Falls and Vazhachal Falls, are situated on this river. The famous Hydro Electric Projects on Chalakkudy River are 'Sholayar Hydro Electric Project' and 'Peringalkuttu Hydro Electric Project'. Chalakkudy Dam is situated on this river. It merges with the Periyar River at the village of Puthanvelikkara, North Paravur in Ernakulam District.

The Parambikulam Dam has been built on the Parambikulam River, one of its four tributaries.[

Tight Lines Jeen


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:51 pm 
Offline
Enlightened
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:43 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Bangalore, India
Hi everyone

I had a recent visit to Chalakkudy River (upstream of Athirapilly and Vazhachal waterfalls), and was seeing the river from a different angle since in some earlier post Jeen mentioned that there are Mahseers there in the river. I was there for a day admiring the beauty of the river and possible fishing spots (no fishing). To my surprise I found some fishes, which looked like baby mahseer to me, in some rocky shallow areas of the river. They were a bit smaller than the size of my palm and were glittering when sunlight falls on them in an angle. (Again I’m no expert when it comes to mahseer, but am sure that they are not among those normal fishes you find in the rivers of Kerala).
Same day I had some discussions with the Forest department and they said that, as part of the new ‘Eco tourism plan’ by the government of Kerala, they are introducing fishing and boating in Chalakkudy river upstream near the Sholayar dam and Anakayam. Fishing will be on a ‘catch and release’. I was really happy to find out that the forest department there knows the difference between ‘fishing’ and ‘angling’, ‘catch and release etc.’ Eco tourism is already inaugurated, so it will only be a matter of time since they start with the boating and angling licenses. (Anglers will be taken on small boats to the fishing spots).
Unlike it used to be before, there are lots of places to stay near the river (two or three resorts run by Kerala Tourism dept, Plantation dept etc, and some by other private parties which I found are very beautiful and cozy).
Again I’m no expert here, but I think fly-fishing also will work great in these waters.
One thing, which disappointed me was that, when I was there I heard a ‘bang’ from a distance, which my father told me was that of a dynamite…...!!!!

| Cheers
| Sreekanth Soman
|
|
|
¿ < º)))))><


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:14 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
Just been having a chat with Mark about various issues, including mahseer analysis.
When we are on the river in March, we will try to start a serious study of taxonomic details.

In the meantime, it you catch a mahseer can you take a general catch shot, plus a close up of each of the fins and a shot of the fish lying on its side on a wet bit of grass or unhooking mat.
Try to fill the frame with the detail and try not to use flash if at all possible. That will make it easier to begin identification.
Any mahseer will do, even tiny ones, and if you or a ghillie feel you know the type, let us know.
PM me if you have any info.

I'll post again on other threads about the other issues.

Jeen, I'm sure Mark will be really interested in your river, but may not have seen this reply. I'll make sure he reads it.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:33 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Hello there everyone,

Thanks for the welcome Jeen, and thanks for bringing this to my attention Steve. I am very interested in what you have to say about the fish on the Chalakudy, and also the reference to the National Bureau of Fish Genetic Resources which I did not know about but whose annual report I am (thus far unsuccessfully) trying to download.

I completely endorse Steve Lockett's request please to send us any decent photos of fish from the Cauvery including both location and what you think or are told the species is. It is quite clear some species have become endangered and declined, whilst others may have been introduced outside of their natural range. The two are in all probability not unrelated to each other! We lack decent identification guides to the fish, but I can accumulate details.

Ideally, your photos should enable someone to count: (a) scales along the lateral line (and ideally above and below it too); (3) spines and rays in the dorsal fin (so please try to get the fish to hold the fin erect); and (c) spines and rays in the anal fin (which is the one that usually gets squashed up when an angler holds a fish up for the camera. All other photographic points (no flash, laying the fish on wet netting or vegetation, etc.) I concur totally with Steve.

I have just corresponded with an academic colleague in Pondicherry who is seeking out other scientific expertise locally. This may help us a lot. Or not!

Take care everyone,

Mark


Top
   
 Post subject: Masheer Species
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:27 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:39 pm
Posts: 755
Location: UAE
Hi Steve/ Mark,

The enthusiasim you guys show is quite heartning. Looks like we may be able to protect our favourite rivers. I understand the importance of collecting solid relavant information before we approach the authorities with a clear plan. The academic interest apart I am desperate to save our great fishing spots.
I remember meeting a guy about 15 years ago who was doing a study on different Masheer of the Western Ghats. I had taken a fish I caught with orange fins to his place for identification.I am trying to locate this guy and hope to get some material from him

Regards,
&
Tight Lines,

Jeen


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:35 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
Sounds intriguing Jeen.

If you get the chance to look at the thread on the environment page about fighting the cause, let me know any thoughts you may have.

Trying to move forward as much as possible before we head out to India and possibly to put some things into motion as well.
I mention this because we had some chat before about the rivers in Kerala. Although we won't be visiting, the things we hope to achieve will be relevant there as well.

Is there any freshwater fishing in UAE? (Sorry, very OT :oops: )


Top
   
 Post subject: Masheer Species
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:14 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:39 pm
Posts: 755
Location: UAE
Hi Steve,

No my friend , no rivers in the UAE. We are flanked here by the Persian Gulf on One side & the Indian Ocean on the other. The reason why I run every three months to the hills in my country.
What excactly are you guys scheduled to do in India apart from Fishing the Cauvery? Do you have a plan? Are you making a presentation to the Govenment or any relavant bodies on the subject of sportsfishing and conservation.
Iam eager to know.

Regards,

Jeen


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:23 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
Perhaps at this moment I should urge you to look at Fighting the Cause in the Environmental section of the forum.

We are hoping to encourage positive steps towards helping you guys protect your rivers.
The most practical thing we can do this year when we're on the ground is to start the process of classifying and taking high quality pics of the fish we catch.
That's why any pics we can see will help along that particlular path.

Also intend to host a meeting in Bangalore so we can all have a chat about some of the topics that have been raised recently. Including environmental issues and the possibility of putting an Indian team into the World Champs.
Suppose it will be loads of blokes sitting around talking about fishing :lol:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:33 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Wiltshire, UK
The big picture is really simple. We need fish. Fish need healthy rivers, unpolluted and rich in habitat without obstructions, etc. Healthy rivers support diverse wildlife and provide clean water for irrigation, industry and human consumption, etc. In this virtuous circle, great mahseer and human wellbeing are synonymous, with the economic benefits bestowed on us by that healthy river system providing incentives for us to manage and use it sustainably. However, the big picture is the easy bit!

'Real' rivers have different owners with different vested interests, often many with pressing subsistence needs that over-ride any bigger vision, and often no clear understanding by governments of how rivers behave (or degrade) as whole integrated systems dependent upon all their parts.

We in Europe have trashed most of our rivers, so don't look for us for examples of the Holy Grail!

However, research around the world and a more long-established set of environmental legislation and body of common law has given us certain tools that may be of use to you guys to do good by your rivers.

Can the politicians be enthused by this big picture and is anyone able to help us open doors to them?

Do we know the key constraints to the wellbeing of the ecosystem in different river reaches, be that pollution, abstraction, poaching, habitat loss, run-off from agriculture, etc? And if so can we identify solutions that can be raised to those with economic or political power as a set of 'building blocks' to a healthier river system?

What legislation works elsewhere, and how can this be translated into something workable in an Indian context?

How can the common law be applied and developed to protect people's rights to fishing and a healthy environment (as enshrined in the Indian Constitution amongst other places) and does anyone know of any lawyers who want to play ball? We have a great model in the UK with an NGO body known as the ACA (Anglers' Conservation Association).

Is it possible to engage sets of vested positive interests in a catchment in acting together? There are models in the UK in terms of River Trusts, but also in India such as the Friends of the Ganges, etc. What works, and how can we string this together?

So lots of questions! This is what Steve and I will tackle this year, as well as trying to catch some stunning fishes. We will not be ungrateful for any offer of help. Ultimately, it is down to local champions... we don't live in India and are keenly aware that we don't want to be seen as meddling outsiders. But between us we do have some useful experience that we'd like to share with the right folks to get things moving on the ground.

This post is probably in the wrong bit of the forum... sorry! But we certainly need to audit what swims in the river as a basic stepping stone towards the ultimate goals!

Good fishing everyone... the river that I can see from the back of my house in southern England is spilled all over the fields and is a marvellous sight!

Mark


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:24 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
I have copied a large part of Mark's previous post onto the
Conservation & Environment forum under 'fighting the cause'.

Don't forget to take shots of those mahseer and their fins etc. PM me when you have taken any.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:57 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 265
Location: Devon, England
Just been following up the post that Viraj put up some time back.

Tor kulkarnii is a dwarf variety of Tor khudree and found only in one tributary of the Godavari River.

It was named in honour of Dr Kulkarni, but was discovered in the 1940s, not necessarily by Dr Kulkarni.

Also found that both WASI and CWS have been stocking fingerlings for several years. Initially from stock bred at Lonavla, but more recently from a breeding programme in Karnataka. Does anyone have details of the Karnataka breeding programme?Perhaps some of those fish are the suspected Tor douronensis?

The more you know, the more you realise there is to know :?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:31 am 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:12 pm
Posts: 103
Location: New Delhi
Hey Steve

That's my sign off that u r quoting and I got it from UB40 :P

regards

Viraj

enjoying yr & mark's posts


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:36 pm
Posts: 42
Location: England
Quote:
"To my surprise I found some fishes, which looked like baby mahseer to me, in some rocky shallow areas of the river. They were a bit smaller than the size of my palm and were glittering when sunlight falls on them in an angle"

worth fighting for, surely? .... there's gold in them there hills .... :wink:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:40 pm 
Offline
Enlightened
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:43 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Bangalore, India
You bet....!!!! :wink:

| Cheers
| Sreekanth Soman
|
|
|
¿ < º)))))><


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:33 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Hi folks,

I have completed a long trawl through the complex and incomplete scientific literature on mahseer taxonomy. What a lot of disagreement there is amongst it all!!

However, what I have done is drawn up a key to the species. Rough and needing testing, but I wondered if anyone was interested in having a go with their fish or photos?

If so, let me know via this forum and I can e-mail you a PDF of the key.

Cheers,

Mark


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:38 pm 
Offline
Fishaholic

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:26 am
Posts: 1479
Hi Mark,
Hands up from me mate.
Please send it to owen_bosen@yahoo.com
Cheers
Owen


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:33 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Hi everyone,

Been doing more digging in the details of the literature. (I should get out more, I know). I have come to the very strong suspicion that Tor Kulkarnii is probably not a true species!! I have e-mailed the Fishbase people with the following... I'd like any and everyone's views on it please!!

The status of the dwarf mahseer

Fishbase lists Tor kulkarnii Menon as one of the six accepted Indian species of mahseer. In his identification of ‘Tor kulkarnii sp. nov.’, Menon (1992) notes that, “T.kulkarnii can, however, be easily separated by its considerably short head (length of head 4.1, 3.8 in T. tor. 3.2 in T. khudree)…” Of its ‘Diagnostic features’, Menon states this novel species is, “Distinguished from other mahseer fishes by its deeper body and with a short head considerably shorter than the depth of the body, 24-26 scales along lateral line and 2½ rows below it to base of pelvic fin”. To this, he adds the ‘description’: “D. IV, 9, P. 14-16, A. Ill, 5, C. 19, L.l 24-26, L.tr. 3½/2½”. However, in concluding his analysis, Menon notes two interesting points. The first of these is that the species was identified from only four specimens, one holotype (ZSI No.FF 2710 from the Darna river, Deolali, Maharashtra state, 208.0 mm S.L., collected on 29th April 1936) and three paratype specimens (ZSI No. FF 2711, 148.0-200.0 mm S.L.) captured along with the holotype. Secondly, of the relationships of the species, Menon notes that, ”T. kulkarnii is a dwarf cognate of T. khudree. The small head and the deeper body distinguish this from all other species of mahseer.” The term ‘cognate’, is of course open to interpretation, meaning either an affinity to or rising from a common source.

Others dispute the provenance of the species. In his review of the Deccan mahseer fishes, Jayaram (2005) dismisses the specific status of T. kulkarnii, stating that, “Tor kulkarnii Menon is a dwarf form of Tor khudree as stated by the author himself and Dr. Ogale of the Tata Fish Farm at Lonavla has not been able to segregate the species, which only confirms its status.”

It is noteworthy that, unlike most other authorities, Menon (1992) did not consider Tor mussullah (the Humpback mahseer) to be a true species. If we accept that it is, then Menon’s description of T. kulkarnii as “Distinguished from other mahseer fishes by its deeper body and with a short head considerably shorter than the depth of the body…” fits the description of Tor mussullah, and would also meet most details of the description provided by Jayaram (2005).

I am included to believe that T. kulkarnii is NOT a new species, but either a local form of T. khudree or T. mussullah. (More investigation would be required to ascertain which.)

I wonder what others’ views are on this?

Take care all,

Mark


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ] 

All times are UTC+05:30


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited