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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:03 am 
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Enlightened

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Location: Germany
Did you already start to compare your trophy shots to check if you're having repeat catches? Are there any well known fishes that get caught every season?

dibu


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Fishaholic
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I've heard a couple of vague stories of fish that have been caught twice. Nothing specific. I guess the best people to ask would be the guides and based on what they say try locating pictures of the fish to see if they're the same.
I've caught a 20lber that had been caught earlier (guide showed me). The fish put up a good fight and will hopefully triple in size before I catch him again :wink:

Mighty M.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:03 pm 
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As i mentioned earlier in one of my posts, there was a fish that Richard Pitts caught (he told me this himself) somewhere near Moslehalla that was around 50lbs and he caught it again a few munites after he released it. :roll:
He was a gentleman angler, and no tall stories mate :lol:
But i can swear i keep catching the same damn catfish every time i visit crocodile rocks [smilie=graytard.gif]

On a more serious note, there are too many fish out there, and they grow so quick, that unless they looked like the freak that MM caught, not too many people would be able to recognize them again.
MM can you point Dibu to that fish ?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:14 pm 
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Enlightened

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I was just asking as I heard several times that members are claiming that fishing is getting slower because of too much pressure/too much fisherman (Mahseer finally get business). Would be interesting to know if fish are just getting wiser and taking the bait more careful (thus getting caught less times), if they're dying away and only few new are coming up (who knows what happens to a big fish after a heavy fight and photosession when getting returned...maybe easy prey for otters and crocodiles?... don't really think so..) or if they move into other less pressured areas (but I think for the famous stretch this should be limited upstream to Forbes lakes and downstream to Mekadatu, right?). It is possible to identify even fully scaled fish -as we know from comparing pictures of big common carp-. But therefore somebody needs to find the time to work on a databank collecting good shots of the big fish. Another way would be to sign the fish with the special fish marking plates. Gets done regular here in Europe to see how far fish are travelling or to find the spawning ground. Maybe something to discuss with WASI, should give them a better idea for their stocking policy.

Dirk


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:54 am 
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Fishaholic

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Hi Dibu,
It would be interesting to have markers fixed on the fish that are landed by anglers, but a lot of the fish are caught and released almost immediatetly after giving the fish time to recover and then quick photo / weighing session.
Unless every angler was given tags and the equipment to tag the fish, with training to do so (including foreign anglers) it is a bit difficult to visualize that happening here.
I for one would be most interested in knowing just how far the fish travel, and where they land up during the spawning season.

They certainly can't enter the WASI lakes from the lower stretches like Doddamakali, because of the falls and the hydro generation units that come in the way, and also only a small part of the river passes through the lakes and goes into the hydro generation, the rest goes over the falls.
Though it is possible for the fish in the lakes to make their way down to the main river if they can make it through the hydro unit.

It would also be interesting to know if there are any dead / damaged fish turning up in the waters after the hydro plant.

Could you post some samples on this forum of the tags & equipment used and the process involved in tagging. We can certainly discuss this at our next WASI meeting.

I don't think anyone has made a serious study in recent times of identifying individual fish, because the river is so wild, that the chances of ever seeing the same fish again is very remote.

Another thing is now we seem to see a lot more of the blue fin variety in our waters these days, and i for one am wondering whether they were fingerlings that were released in these waters and have grown, or have they moved in here from other streams and rivers. So far no one has answered this, probably because none on this forum were present during the introduction of the fingerlings that has taken place from time to time on the Kaveri.

Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:07 am 
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Enlightened

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Location: Germany
Dear Owen,

actually I never made any marking on fish by myself, but I know some people that have been working on the subject of getting salmon and seatrout living in our German rivers again. They use electricity fishing to control the rivers stock and to get milk and spawn for future fingerlings. Every decent fish caught this way gets signed with a marker and they now notice several repeat captures all over Germany. I’ll try to find out about these things and hope I’ll be able to supply some pictures soon.

I’m in the opinion Cauvery is the perfect spot to get something like this done. But it shouldn’t be fisherman that get teached into doing so, but the ghilies. As far as I know it only takes seconds to mark a fish and it will also cause no harm to him. Even a villager or ghilie can do it. Additionally there should be leaflets given to each foreign fisherman or camp visitor to have all repeat captures and the swim where the fish has been caught noted down. Ghillies again should check that fisherman do really do what they get asked for. I think in only very few cases you can leave this work to them as well as only few of them can read or write. The leaflets or tables later have to be given back to the camp managers and should then passed over to WASI. WASI should do the same with their members and I think you also have your own ghilies or guys rowing for the coracles, right? At the end of each year the table have to be collected to see what has happened. Just as a idea….

Dirk


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:47 pm 
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Fishaholic
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Location: Bangalore/Andman Islands, India
Hi Owen/Dibu,

A fish tagging programme has been on the back of our minds for sometime now as there are so many unanswered questions regarding mahseer on stretch we fish. For example no one knows where they spawn, if fish migrate within the stretch and the rate at which they grow. I guess a programme like this would need scientific backing from the fisheries/forest department.
The actual tagging of fish can be taught to the guides who will have to record measurements/location/time/bait used etc... how accurately can this be done? I guess it can be done by involving them in the project and having them trained. Maintaining and understanding the data will again have to be done by a competent authority.
Roping in the forest dept, fisheries dept, JLR and WASI is not going to be easy. In the past WASI had run into some problems with the forest dept. when they released murral fingerlings into the river. I have no idea how willing JLR will be in a project like this one.
Its a start! At least we have a platform now to discuss such matters and I see us (anglers) being the guardians of the river.
I'm straying now.... but we need to see that angling (CnR) and conservation go hand in hand. Don't think people out there know how important a river like the Cauvery is to us all (anglers and non anglers).

Regards,
Mighty Marlin.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:00 am 
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Enlightened

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Dear MM,

there is quiet a lot scientific stuff –about fish/fisheries/reproduction of fishes- to be found in the web. It’s related to India and Indian species written by Indian scientists… so I assume it should be possible get some scientists onto this matter too. They should be thankful to get such a chance. For sure by getting them you’ll have the base for achieving serious results.
I don’t understand that there is some struggle between forest/fishery dept. and WASI. I thought all of them to follow the same ideas. I had the feeling that even the camps are only commercial to a certain extent and that a fair share of their income is again used to put into stocking fingerlings or paying the guards that look after fish or game poachers.

Dirk


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:21 pm 
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Hi Dibu,
I'm a little sketchy when it comes to scientific work carried out on Mahseer on the Cauvery. In the last 10 years of fishing for mahseer I haven't come across anyone studying them on the stretch. Maybe my timing was off.
I'm sure there's a wealth of practical knowledge with anglers and people on the forum that can help the scientific community and vice versa. The eventual aim being the protection of the river.
On the ground things don't run as smoothly as they should between the agencies involved.
It would be interesting to see if someone can get in touch with the fisheries dept to see if they'd be interested in a project like the one we're discussing.

Regards,
Mighty Marlin.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:05 am 
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I'm all for it guys. Maybe we should approach some one like Susheel and find out just how viable such a project could be, and who to approach to get advice from the scientific community.
As MM says, i doubt whether any work of this sort has been undertaken on the Kaveri for a very long time, and the sudden dip in catches should be an alarm bell.
I will speak to Susheel if someone can give me his number.
Any other ideas are also welcome guy's.
Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:03 am 
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Fishaholic

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HI Guys,

Some time ago, Kumar (the Bhimeshwari Camp Manager) enquired from me whether I could get some fish tags for the mahseer. I said yes without really thinking.

To me, fish tagging is a goo way of tracking the movement and development of fish. It's also a way of promoting fish conservation among anglers; they get involved in the actual tagging as well as reporting of tagged fishes.

But i have since had some reservations about a tagging program for Cauvery Mahseer (at least between Galibore and Dodda Makali):

- What would be the response from the visiting anglers? If anglers are not for it, then the program is a no-no
- Can the gillies be trained to implement the program? Actual tagging, record keeping etc.
-Should the JLR tie in to a local conservation group or sceince research org for this?

I'm just an angler with a conservation slant. I actually bought about 200 tags from Australia (found out they are quite costly!): the longest I could find. I know this is not many, ut maybe they can used for the bigger mahseer landed by anglers.

The tag is supposed to be injected into the mahseer in the region immediately below the dorsal fin. Mahseer scales are huge, hence the long PDA tags. Tagged fish will have this pink-coloured plastic thing protruding from their dorsal.

So, what do you guys think? If you guys are cool, I'll proceed with kumar. If not, I'll have to use them somewhere else.

Regards,
JB


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:24 am 
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Hi JB,
seems a bit drastic this injecting the tagstuff, however maybe you should get it done on a fish and give us your views on whether this is feasible for scaled fish, or more suitable for scaleless varieties.
Dirk was talking about something that sounded like a marking made on the fish, which i imagined to be an ink marking or something of that sort. Must have been dreaming. :oops:
Could you post a picture of the markers that you brought from Australia, and the equipment involved. This will give us a better idea.
Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:31 am 
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Hi Owen,

If they can tag Tarpon in this manner, they should be able to do Mahseer. They have about the same type of scales i'd presume


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:44 am 
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Hi Bobby / JB,
Waiting to see these tags. Hope there will not be any infection issues if they are used. God we guy's could get lynched for even suggesting it if something like that were to happen ! :roll:
However i do fell it is very importent to better understand the migratory patterns of these fish, and to better understand whether they are territorial or constantly on the move, and where they spawn so that those areas if any can be protected even more during the spawning season.
I do think we could get the support of JLR and Wasi on this, provided it is totally safe for our fish.
Hey Bobby you know of any alternate methods of marking fish ?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:13 am 
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Enlightened

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:24 pm
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Location: Germany
To Owen: I was also thinking about tagging. But fine to know that these things are already available.

I think the serious abroad fisherman will be interested in such programme. Visitors that are a mostly travelling for wildlife and nature -and just have a day fishing- might not be the right people.
However I still have the feeling the guides should be trained to do so. If they get a small extra comission for each recorded fish they should do very nice work. I still see the problem for taking the written notes.

Mr Kumar: Is he still staying at Bheemeswary? Heard he left the camp?

Dirk


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:20 am 
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Kumar is now in charge of the Bannerghatta jungle lodges camp. Sundar is in charge of Galiborai.

Bops


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:45 am 
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Hi Dirk,
As i see it, in the situation of a fish to be tagged, there are always anglers along with the guides and by and large they will most willingly get the paper work done. As for the guides if things are explained to them, i am very certain that they will follow it to the T. They get a good tip from every angler they assist anyway, so that should not be an issue.
Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:42 am 
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Fishaholic

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Owen,

I dont have a ready digi pic of the tag. Gimme some time, but meanwhile let me describe it:

It's a PDA tag (plastic dart application). Length; 6 in / 15 cm. The head is like half-an-arrowhead, made of plastic, the tail is a pink sliver of plastic with a code number at the end.
The applicator is a simple sharpened aluminium tube, that perfectly fits the tag inside. The tag is thus pushed under the scale of the fish and into the flesh, then the applicator is retracted. Only the last two inches or so of the tag is visible (since the scale of the mahseer is so big, showing the code number.

I imagine that the tag is safe for fishes. Hallprint, the maker of the tag (you can search on the Net for their site) is no newcomer to this business. Scientific organisations around the world use their tags. The tag is guaranteed to last without fading for at least 15 years.

I actually drafted a proposal for JLR (just in case Kumar enquires again). Now that he's transferred, I dont know!

There are other methods of tagging:

-Microchip inserted in fish body, either at the snout or under a scale. But you cant read the code unless you have a scanning device. This method is used to tag Malaysian red mahseer in a river sanctuary and eco-angling camp here. The fishing guides need to carry those scanners with them.

-Clip-type tags, usually attached to a fin spine. Not good for mahseer, due to their environment, and they are bottom dwellers; may lose the tags.

><<:>



><<:>


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 Post subject: Repeats
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:48 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Location: New Delhi
Hi Dibu

In May this year I foul hooked a 37.5 LB golden at Pancheshwar - you can imagine the fight and as I'm a small guy, one of my larger friends (in many respects I imagine, but no names, though HotShot would know who I'm talking about :P ) took charge and fought the fish (he actually demanded to do it and i'm a giving sort) and landed it successfully.

The next day, one of North India's best anglers, Joey, hooked the same fish on a clean take - we recognized it easy as the foul hook hd marked the fish above the tail..

What does one make of it?

My dad has caught mahaseer with trebles inside the mouth.Ouch!

Tagging should be done - but first let's test,,, then learn a bit..decide what its teaching us and then expand..so i recommend a test-tag program done by one or two people (an angler and a loca gillie) and take it from there.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:59 pm 
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Where is JB and the tags ?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:20 am 
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Posted for JB

OB,

I know I promised you this a LONG time ago, but I finally have the pics ready for you.
The one for the mahseer is the long, pink one (hmm, vulgar). I have put a 10 rupee note (dat's all I can afford...) for comparison.

Image

The shiny thing is the applicator. Put the plastic dart tag into it, then push underneath the fish's scale, just below the dorsal fin, then retract the metal applicator. The rear end of the applicator can be fixed to say a wooden dowel, to make things easier.

Image

><<:>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:46 am 
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Thanks JB, seems simple enough.
When are you coming this way ?
Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Fishaholic

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OB,

I'm touching down Bang-a-lure at midnite 15 Dec. Rusty will probably meet me on morning of 16th, over breakfast (masala tea, I love it!) at Le Meridien. Would be great if you could join us.

Talking of infection, I remember HallPrint (the tag makers) saying that the PDA tag is hygroscopic (or some other long word) meaning its does not have detrimental effect on the fish, as long as you dont puncture an organ or at the lateral line (of course!).

><<:>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:05 pm 
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JB, OB, Guys,
I am not a vet, but the technique you have outlined is similar to some procedures in humans, notably, insertion of the copper T!
Most likely the tag material is some inert , non reactive synthetic.
Hygroscopic -absorbs water-therefore, will swell up and tighten itself in the channel created and not dislodge (easily)
Hope it has been of some help.
Great going and all the best
Axx


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:42 pm 
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Fishaholic

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Hi Guys,

Just got around to reading this thread from top to bottom. If the scientific community accepts tagging fish as safe, it should not be a problem for JLR and others to be involved in this 'scientific project'

JB, can you send your proposal to the MD of JLR, with a copy to the chief naturalist, S Kartikyan. He is keen to study the Mahseer and may be able to get his organisation to support him. Sundar, the manager at Bheemeshwari will also support such an effort and can train the Gillies to do the tagging with the help of the anglers.

I am willing to be a part of this team to co-ordinate with JLR as know them well.

Outrigorsandeep


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:40 pm 
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Fishaholic
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Owen wrote:
Hi Bobby / JB,
Hey Bobby you know of any alternate methods of marking fish ?
Sorry owen missed this one, tagging is the only way I know mate that will cause the least stress to fish. I do not think there is any problem with infection or it would not be a recommended practice in the angling/fishing community world wide.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Training the ghillies to insert microchips and providing each one with a scanner should be the way to go.It would be useful to build up a database of fish captured and released.
Yaj.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:03 pm 
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What about the expense? Same thing with tags mate you are inserting something into the skin...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:17 pm 
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A microchip may be more expensive than a tag but the prices have come down drastically.It is a standard procedure in dogs and other mammals.
In fact microchipping of dogs in India is already underway.
Yaj.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:06 am 
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Hi Yaj,

I still do not think it is economical enough to put microchipping into practice in India. Besides the advantage of a tag is it is visible to anyone who catches a tagged fish all one got to do is clip off the old tag, and send it back to the governing body. A microchip would need a reader and not everyone will want or be able to carry one.

I am a parrot owner and a lot of us insert microchips into our birds for tracing etc and believe me it is not cheap.

Regards,

Bobby


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:16 pm 
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Guys i had the opportunity of meeting up with Anish Sadanandan at the Wasi get together, and also another bloke who is working on getting a grant from the university of florida to do a project on tagging the mahseer.
If we can put our heads together, the resources should not be a problem, and we could make something of this.
Regards
Owen


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Guys,
If some of us in Bangalore need to meet why not fix a Sunday 11.00 am meeting at the India Coffee House just below the JLR office.

I will try and get Karthik to join us.

Sandeep


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